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Why are the Genestealer rules different?


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#1 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:09 PM

Hi there,

There appear to be some fairly significant differences between the Creatures Genestealer rules and the Final Sanction Genestealer rules. No Unnatural Agility X2, no Unnatural Reflexes, different stat-lines, damage, rules, skills, traits, talents - everything really.

And my question is why?

Is it:

1. Because this is a demo-adventure, and just meant to give people a taste.
2. Because these are a different kind of Genestealer.
3. Because the dev team want to keep the games separate.


If it's answer 1., then fine - it's a demo - and Genestealers have a LOT of rules that there just isn't room for in a demo adventure. If it's answer 2. well that's a bit of a stretch, but liveable.

If it's 3 though... well... that's bad. Having the same thing with different rules in different locations is both needlessly inconsistent and quite confusing. Take 40K right now, where there are at least 3 different types of 'Storm Shield' that have different rules yet are all called 'Storm Shields', and around 5 different version of the basic Land Raider (different costs, special rules, transport capacities, etc. - all under the same name - Land Raider).

So I'm really hoping for answer 1., but I'd love to know why the rules for Genestealers in Deathwatch are so wildly different from those in the Creatures book.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#2 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:28 PM

You should never confuse a FREE DEMO adventure with finished rules. Don't get in a huff about anything until the DW core book is in hand.



#3 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 12:57 PM

That's what I've been thinking - it is a streamlined simplied 'demo' version of the full Genestealer rules - but it's worth checking, no?

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#4 KarmicCycle

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 03:06 PM

Here is another little difference. Look at the Lasgun entry of the PDF as compared to Lasguns in DH/RT.

DW Lasgun - 1D10+4 Pen 1

DH/RT Lasgun - 1D10+3 Pen 0

The power of a lasgun has always been an issue in these games. In DH, against a poorly equipped human it seemed fine, but as everything scaled up it quickly became apparent that they underpowered it. Against an Ork Freebooter in RT, for example, TB 8 and 5 armor in the body, a Lasgun needs to pop righteous fury to even hope to hurt one, killing one is nigh impossible. Not in keeping with the canon standard Imperial Guard vs. Orks of the 40k tabletop game, eh?

I think we are going to see a lot of tweaks and balances to weapons and enemy stats as they now have had plenty of time to see all the issues of the original rulesets and scaling into higher levels of play.


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#5 Hellebore

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 04:39 PM

Probably because the rules for genestealers in creatures anathema were lacklustre compared to the background. A CA genestealer wouldn't have posed much of a threat at all to a TB8 AP8 space marine (which was what I complained about back when it was released) despite the fact that a genestealer is supposed to be able to tear a terminator apart...

 

All in all I'm liking this. Still think the bolter damage is absurd, given the armour values on vehicles from the Apocrypha a space marine bolter can penetrate pretty much any tank bar a land raider. Which would beg the question of why bother carrying around plasma guns etc when you've got a standard sidearm that will destroy pretty much anything you hit...

 

Hellebore



#6 Bilateralrope

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 05:43 PM

Hellebore said:

All in all I'm liking this. Still think the bolter damage is absurd, given the armour values on vehicles from the Apocrypha a space marine bolter can penetrate pretty much any tank bar a land raider. Which would beg the question of why bother carrying around plasma guns etc when you've got a standard sidearm that will destroy pretty much anything you hit...

 

Hellebore

The vehicles apocrypha is, and always has been, an unofficial set of rules. The only difference between them and any other house rule is who wrote them.

 

If you want to compare space marine weapons against vehicles you will have to wait until official vehicle rules are released with Into the Storm. Hopefully the people writing it have been in contact with the Deathwatch people to prevent your complaint holding.



#7 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 06:30 PM

KarmicCycle said:

DW Lasgun - 1D10+4 Pen 1


While I don't necessarily disagree with that change (it's actually quite good), this worries me more. Different stats for the same weapons across multiple books is a bad thing. If there's an eventual update errata, then cool, but as it stands we're going to have different rules for things with same name.

I would have thought FFG would avoid that as they actually care about the rules they write (unlike the fine folks at GW).

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#8 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 06:34 PM

Hellebore said:

All in all I'm liking this. Still think the bolter damage is absurd, given the armour values on vehicles from the Apocrypha a space marine bolter can penetrate pretty much any tank bar a land raider. Which would beg the question of why bother carrying around plasma guns etc when you've got a standard sidearm that will destroy pretty much anything you hit.


Three things:

1. That's less a problem with Bolters, and more a problem with Plasma Guns, something that's been a problem since Black Industries.
2. We haven't seen the rules for an Astartes-level Plasma Gun.
3. We don't know what the vehicle rules are yet.

Of course, if, as this thread speculates, the vehicle rules are going to be for RT and (despite similarities) not compatible with DH or DW, then that last point will be moot.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#9 Hellebore

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 06:51 PM

If they make an 'astartes plasma gun'  (which there is even less evidence for than the recently created astartes bolters) then you will run into the same problem, except it will be scaling issues with lascannons instead.  If you then make lascannons super uber, well, there won't be a tank that can actually protect against a hit from one making them a little silly.

 

The plasma gun/lascannon is used the same way in guard and marine armies. They fulfill the same role. If a guardsman's plasma gun can't destroy light vehicles then he's better off using an astartes bolter. Can you see the scaling problem there?

 

Hellebore



#10 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 07:05 PM

Hellebore said:

If they make an 'astartes plasma gun'  (which there is even less evidence for than the recently created astartes bolters) then you will run into the same problem, except it will be scaling issues with lascannons instead.  If you then make lascannons super uber, well, there won't be a tank that can actually protect against a hit from one making them a little silly.


Hyperbolic assumption.

How can you say that there "won't be a tank that can actually protect against a hit." when we don't even know what the vehicle rules are yet? And the rulebooks have stated since Purge the Unclean that Astartes level equipment is better than regular equipment, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say 'less evidence'. Astartes-Level Bolters aren't new, they're not 'recently created'.

BYE

 


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#11 Cifer

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 07:36 PM

 The plasma gun/lascannon is used the same way in guard and marine armies. They fulfill the same role. If a guardsman's plasma gun can't destroy light vehicles then he's better off using an astartes bolter. Can you see the scaling problem there?

Except that for the guardsman, the Astartes Boltgun is a heavy bolter lacking recoil compensation and with a too small magazine.

Giving Marines more powerful versions of the standard weapons makes sense: You don't need to equip a few million guardsmen per planet with them, you're giving them to the best of the best of the best of the Imperium and you don't have to worry about weight and recoil concerns. Less mass production compromises and more weight makes for a better weapon.



#12 Hellebore

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 07:42 PM

Astartes plasma guns and guard plasma guns have the same job. If you make an astartes one 'better' then it will quickly scale into the damage capacity of other guard weapons. But if you make vehicle armour high, you prevent a guard plasma gun from doing the job it was supposed to.

 

Take the astartes bolter. It does 2D10+5 damage. A plasma gun would have to do significantly more to make its tempramental nature and small magazine worth using. So it's going to be 3D10+5 minimum to make it worth using. But if you scale vehicle armour so that damage value doesn't immediately penetrate, you will push the armour out of the range of guard plasma gun capability, despite the fact that a guard plasma gun is supposed to be able to pop light tanks.

 

An astartes bolter can produce 30 damage including its pen, but will do around 20 or so. That's the kind of damage plasma guns already do so the astartes bolter is already better at destroying high armoured tanks than a normal plasma gun is.

Trying to allow vehicles to be destroyed by two weapons with different damage capacities to ensure they do what they're supposed to will either mean guard plasma guns don't damage vehicles very often, or that astartes ones do it almost all the time, due to the difference in damage they will have.

@Cifer, a plasma gun can blow up and kill a guardsman. Somehow I doubt the fact that a bolter has recoil will matter if it has more shots with a similar damage output without the risk of killing them.

The fact is that in 40k there never has been a differentiation between marine weapons and everyone elses. The miniatures alone were always sculpted using the same bolters no matter the type of model. Only with DH did they invent this distinction.

Guard do not carry plasma guns for the lols. They are supposed to be an infantry support weapon that helps deal with light vehicles. If they can't do that then they are an overweight, highly dangerous waste of space. And yet the 40k background tells us that guardsman squads carry one special weapon and one heavy weapon on average specifically to defeat enemy armour.

Hellebore



#13 Cifer

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:46 PM

@Hellebore

 @Cifer, a plasma gun can blow up and kill a guardsman. Somehow I doubt the fact that a bolter has recoil will matter if it has more shots with a similar damage output without the risk of killing them.

As already noted, a boltgun that makes optimum use of a marine's strength, stature and size is a heavy weapon for a guardsman. The benefit of a plasma weapon is that it can be used while on the move without time for setting it up.

 

The fact is that in 40k there never has been a differentiation between marine weapons and everyone elses. The miniatures alone were always sculpted using the same bolters no matter the type of model. Only with DH did they invent this distinction.

Funny you mention that. Would you also argue that marines are the same height as guardsmen? Because the models certainly don't look like there's half a metre size difference. If we scale up that size alone we arrive at differing weapon sizes.

Further, compare combat effectiveness of a marine in DW against one in the tabletop. 18 guardsmen have a good chance of incapacitating a marine in the tt (1/2 hitting, 1/3 wounding, 1/3 penetrating armour). In Deathwatch and marine-centric novels, they're fodder. The tabletop takes quite a number of liberties from the background to make sure you have to put more than two squads on the table (and buy them!).



#14 Face Eater

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 02:16 AM

Cifer said:

Further, compare combat effectiveness of a marine in DW against one in the tabletop. 18 guardsmen have a good chance of incapacitating a marine in the tt (1/2 hitting, 1/3 wounding, 1/3 penetrating armour). In Deathwatch and marine-centric novels, they're fodder. The tabletop takes quite a number of liberties from the background to make sure you have to put more than two squads on the table (and buy them!).

So that's 18 guardsmen to kill 1 space marine? I think you'll find, by any deffinition of the word any force that requires 18 to one odds IS fodder.

And these would be the Books that are based on the TT game then?

And remember when most people have a space marine army they'll include Terminators which most chapters are lucky to have 20 suits of? By right's most people should be allowed terminators or chapter masters so you'll forgive the IG players for playing particularly awesome guard units (rubbish conscipts are still an option if people can be bothered to paint 50 strong units though).

And as for the scale of Space Marines (i've seen this come up before ofc) please bear in mind that NONE of the figures are correctly scaled so trying to scale space Marines against IG that have 40 inch biceps (looking at you Catachan models) isn't really valid. Although I'm sure they are only supposed to be 7 foot which is tall for most people but I can imagine most good IG regiments are all over 6' 2" but they'll be giving away width more than height.



#15 Cifer

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 03:04 AM

 So that's 18 guardsmen to kill 1 space marine? I think you'll find, by any deffinition of the word any force that requires 18 to one odds IS fodder.

I was referring to the fact that in DW, the unit of 18 guardsmen would likely be fodder for the Marine, not the individual guardsmen.

 

And these would be the Books that are based on the TT game then?

These would be books that are based on the rest of the 40k universe, by now including several boardgames and tabletops, lots of other novels, a few PC games and I-don't-know-what-else.

 

And remember when most people have a space marine army they'll include Terminators which most chapters are lucky to have 20 suits of? By right's most people should be allowed terminators or chapter masters so you'll forgive the IG players for playing particularly awesome guard units (rubbish conscipts are still an option if people can be bothered to paint 50 strong units though).

Well, that's my point. The WH40k tabletop has their scales all messed up - you have engagements of forces slightly above skirmishes that nevertheless also involve godkilling abominations, avatars of deities and so on.

 

And as for the scale of Space Marines (i've seen this come up before ofc) please bear in mind that NONE of the figures are correctly scaled so trying to scale space Marines against IG that have 40 inch biceps (looking at you Catachan models) isn't really valid. Although I'm sure they are only supposed to be 7 foot which is tall for most people but I can imagine most good IG regiments are all over 6' 2" but they'll be giving away width more than height.

...which is why you shouldn't consider the figures a good base for arguments.

 



#16 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 03:14 AM

Look at things logically. Based on Power Armor Values:

A light armored vehicle should be between 8-15 AP

Light tank should fall in 12-18 AP

Medium tank 18-24 AP

Heavy Tank 24-30

Super Heavy 30+

 

These values seem reasonable, since I made the up. All of these values would keep all the weapons functional without over or under powering any of the current weapon values. You could also, easily add a modifier to the armor value of vehicles stating that anything under PEN 6 is treated as primitive damage against the vehicles armor. You could call it Reinforced Vehicular Armor. This would take care of bolters and stubbers taking out tanks and allow Plasma and Melta to shine.



#17 UncleArkie

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 04:25 AM

Face Eater said:


 Although I'm sure they are only supposed to be 7 foot which is tall for most people but I can imagine most good IG regiments are all over 6' 2" but they'll be giving away width more than height.

The world being in a neo dark age, the living conditions being somewhat lower in the 41st millennium I think we can assume that most people are a little shorter than the norm seen through todays western eyes.

Also from the experience I have most special operations guys actually tend not to be big, but rather on the smaller, lean side than big bulging Arnie lookalikes. When your tall you get a bad back easily, being smaller and more compact actually allows you to pack more weight on when you have to mule it somewhere, and these guys do, its actually one of the primary characteristics of ops guys, being able to walk a long distance with a **** load of stuff on your back.

Space marines being 7 ft tall are in my eyes at least actually more like that, take the body shape of these densely packed 5' 8" guys and pull the scaler until he's 7' tall, thats IMHO what marines look like... Whoa sorry for the derailing there.

On subject:

There are ton's of different las gun patterns all produced by what is available locally, my take on the guardsman las rifle being different is that we are half a galaxy away, that is what the local guardsmen come equipped with here, a better pattern, newer perhaps?

As for the "stealer" well these are the "horde" rule version of them, meant to be mowed down in droves by our heroic (even by marine standards) protagonists.

 



#18 Old timer

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 05:59 AM

Theres also a difference in the plasma pistol the rebel general uses. It does 2d10+8 Pen 6, with no mention of overheat or recharge. I wonder if this an indication that in deathwatch plasma weapons will be improved.



#19 macd21

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 09:06 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

Hi there,

There appear to be some fairly significant differences between the Creatures Genestealer rules and the Final Sanction Genestealer rules. No Unnatural Agility X2, no Unnatural Reflexes, different stat-lines, damage, rules, skills, traits, talents - everything really.

And my question is why?

Is it:

1. Because this is a demo-adventure, and just meant to give people a taste.
2. Because these are a different kind of Genestealer.
3. Because the dev team want to keep the games separate.


If it's answer 1., then fine - it's a demo - and Genestealers have a LOT of rules that there just isn't room for in a demo adventure. If it's answer 2. well that's a bit of a stretch, but liveable.

If it's 3 though... well... that's bad. Having the same thing with different rules in different locations is both needlessly inconsistent and quite confusing. Take 40K right now, where there are at least 3 different types of 'Storm Shield' that have different rules yet are all called 'Storm Shields', and around 5 different version of the basic Land Raider (different costs, special rules, transport capacities, etc. - all under the same name - Land Raider).

So I'm really hoping for answer 1., but I'd love to know why the rules for Genestealers in Deathwatch are so wildly different from those in the Creatures book.

BYE

 

There were differences in some of the stats of DH and RT, it doesn't surprise me that there will be differences between the first two and DW. FFG seems to view each new game as an opportunity to fix issues found in the previous games. They may simply have decided that the stats for genestealers from CA were inappropriate.



#20 Dige

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 09:46 AM

The fact is that in 40k there never has been a differentiation between marine weapons and everyone elses. The miniatures alone were always sculpted using the same bolters no matter the type of model. Only with DH did they invent this distinction.

There exists different types of bolt pistols, at least (althought the "civilian" type is fairly new sculpt). I think that SM Scouts, Baneblade and Chimaera commander and one of the new Commissar figures have the "Civilian" versions, and everyone else has the more badass Astartes versions, like all rest SM:s, IG commanders, and Commissar Lord.

A light armored vehicle should be between 8-15 AP

Light tank should fall in 12-18 AP

Medium tank 18-24 AP

Heavy Tank 24-30

Super Heavy 30+

Given that thick iron is worth 16 AP, and armaplas 32 (DH Core rulebook page 199, table 7-10: Cover types), these seem fairly reasonable. Althought I agree that Astartes bolters are overpowered. Tearing makes them so sick, and with Kraken bolts, you get pen 8! That is no AP 4+, but 3+!

But, having played the Tyranus Concleave Adeptus Astartes - marines for many games, I agree that enemies NEED more power to even hurt marines (ok, powerarmor gave them 10 ap in TC:AA, but they had worse stats and less wounds, but still!). The Horde rules are already nice, but I think that normal NPC:s at least would need to have a chance to wound without multiple Righteous Furies.

At least the Final Sanction's genestealers are called Lordsholm (what an name, btw!) Genestealers, and the heavy stubbers are water-cooled (how that increases the damage output?) -..

 






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