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Scenario 1: Brother Fights Brother - Too weak traitor starting forces in space port Primus?


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#1 Tanan

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 07:56 PM

Hi,


Are the traitor starting forces in “Scenario 1: Brother Fights Brother” correct? According to setup diagram, the traitor forces in space port Primus consist of warband, daemon horde, chaos Space marine and Angron (combat rating 8 + hero => 4 combat cards + 2 hero cards). The way I see it, the traitor player can play exactly one order before loyalist player plays the “Assault” order and attacks the traitor forces with two titans, four space marines, two imperial tank divisions, three imperial armies and Jaghatai Khan (combat rating 27 + hero => 14 combat cards + 2 hero cards).

In my opinion, the only realistic options for the traitor player are:
- Try to corrupt imperial tank and army units around the space port.
- Try to destroy the titans with orbital bombardment
- Use “Port landing” order and bring 3 titans to the spaceport. If all defense laser shots miss, the traitor forces combat rating rises to 20.
- Use “Drop pods” order and deploy 3 chaos space marines and Fulgrim (combat rating 9 + hero) against the two titans and two tank divisions (combat rating 12). Hopefully, the resulting coexistence battle destroys a titan or advances the loyalist iniative track.
 



#2 Dam

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 08:15 PM

Tanan said:

In my opinion, the only realistic options for the traitor player are:

 

- Try to corrupt imperial tank and army units around the space port.
- Try to destroy the titans with orbital bombardment
- Use “Port landing” order and bring 3 titans to the spaceport. If all defense laser shots miss, the traitor forces combat rating rises to 20.
- Use “Drop pods” order and deploy 3 chaos space marines and Fulgrim (combat rating 9 + hero) against the two titans and two tank divisions (combat rating 10). Hopefully, the resulting coexistence battle destroys a titan or advances the loyalist iniative track.

 

 

First two are pretty much automatic for me. Apart from the spaceports, 2 Titans + 2 Tanks out in the open is the prime target for bombarment. I might snipe (read: precise) a spaceport if I managed to convert most of it via corruption, but normally I use 2-3 cards on that region with the Titans and Tanks. Most of the time one Titan is gone, other damaged, hopefully the tank(s) can take it out in the coexistance battle if I converted them.

Third one is also just about the most common starting move. Another option might be to attack the fortification with 2 White Scars and Imperial Army from Primus or one of the 1x Imperial Army spaces, that would open up retreat routes from Primus, other than backing yourself into the bottom-left corner. Also, if the Imperial player is taking the IAs with him on the attack, you can kill one of them and open a retreat route that way as well.

I prefer to drop Fulgrim into Damocles (or near it), he does his best work when getting to grips with IA and tank units, he is "just" a hero against all other units.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#3 Tanan

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 08:53 PM

Hmm. After reading “Scenario 2: Heresy Unheralded” unit setup I’m getting a feeling that scenario 1 doesn’t “set the stage for a well-balanced game”. The traitor unit deployment is horrible.



#4 Dam

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 11:29 PM

According to the logged stats on BGG, Traitors hold 30-24 advantage in wins in Scenario 1. If the Traitor drops units to support Angron as his first move, Primus becomes a lot less desirable target. Mortarion would be a nice target with his 5+2 draw initially, but his ability makes people nervous about attacking him. Plus, like I said, the Titans are pretty much out of the picture by the time the Imperials get their first turn, bombarment + coexistance battle with the tanks will have dealt with them most likely. Add to that Damocles being secured by the Traitors and the Imperials are looking at Lions Gate nervously. Though Sanguinius and his Blood Angels can attack Damocles and retake it, but that leaves an area free in the Imperial Palace for Drop Pods if you take all 3x BA to the south.

I've found that if you do a bombardment from Apocalypse Rains Down on Dorn and the Imperial Fists and get a breach (precise being good for that), you can bring in some reinforcements for Mortarion and attack them with very little risk, very likely you'll get them to retreat.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#5 Three Headed Monkey

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 03:24 PM

Dam said:

 

Though Sanguinius and his Blood Angels can attack Damocles and retake it, but that leaves an area free in the Imperial Palace for Drop Pods if you take all 3x BA to the south.

 

 

Well, you dont have to move all engaging units into the target area if you clear it.

As to the OP, I've also found that being smart with corruption can limit where Khan can support an assault. Its not all that reliable though. If it works, however, you can ease the pressure on Angron and Mortarion for the next change of initiative at least.

Mortarion also desperately needs to remove at least two of the defence lasers around him if you want to reliably reinforce him.



#6 Keithandor

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 04:04 PM

I think the 1st scenario is for new players and for teaching new players , I would rather play scenario 2 or 3 once both players know what they are doing.

I haven't played 4,5 or 6 yet so can't comment on them.

 



#7 Dam

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 07:37 PM

Three Headed Monkey said:

Well, you dont have to move all engaging units into the target area if you clear it.

I wasn't talking about going in after the combat, I was referring to emptying out the initial position in the Forbidden Fortress that Sangy and 3x BAs start in. If you clear that out to attack Damocles in force (Assemble from strat map, so the target area isn't activated), Traitor can then use Drop Pod to gain a foothold in the Palace region.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#8 Three Headed Monkey

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 08:13 PM

Dam said:

 

Three Headed Monkey said:

Well, you dont have to move all engaging units into the target area if you clear it.

 

I wasn't talking about going in after the combat, I was referring to emptying out the initial position in the Forbidden Fortress that Sangy and 3x BAs start in. If you clear that out to attack Damocles in force (Assemble from strat map, so the target area isn't activated), Traitor can then use Drop Pod to gain a foothold in the Palace region.

 

 

Ah right. I misunderstood. I though you were talking about attacking Lions Gate from there. Yeah, perhaps if there is enough intiative you could move another unit into the Forbidden Fortress. Or an early redeploy in the palace to set it up if the Traitor player doesnt drop pod onto Damocles straight away. If not then not only can the traitors pod into the palace but then Lions Gate is vunerable as well.

TBH though I feel that moving the BAs out of the palace leaves it a bit unprotected if Mortarion can manage to rout the Imperial fists. I feel a good early move for the Imperials is to move Sanguinius and a second BA into the Outer Palace area adjacent to the Eternity Wall spaceport, so Mortarion cant romp the defense laser there,  making it dangerous for him to bring down a massive port landing.

Do many people move Custodes to the outer palace for defence?

 



#9 Dam

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:50 PM

Traitors often leave Lions Gate alone until the BAs move off, at least to some degree. Taking the Spaceport with Sangy and 3x BAs right at your doorstep is just asking for trouble. Most of the time, Damocles and Lions Gate fall via corruption and bombardment, either initial or from the Event/Fulgrim. Also, as Traitor, I always try to get Tower of Shadows (the fort adjacent to Eternity Wall) in the initial corruption (scenario 1, it hasn't been factor in scens 2 and 3 so far), so Mortarion only faces 2 Defense Lasers and has a retreat area available.

Custodes in general have seen very little action in my games. Usually they just shoot craps in the Inner Palace, waiting to be unleashed via Sky Fortress Rises/Boarding Action. Though last game they helped to take back Eternity Wall and then held it with the Fabricator General, resulting in an eventual Imperial Holdout Victory.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#10 Tanan

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 07:42 PM

After winning scenario 1 with traitors for the first time, I think that the correct starting move is take out Khan with drop pods. The ideal troops for this operation are: 1 khorne thunderhawk, 2 slaaneshi chaos space marines and Fulgrim. If the imperial army is corrupted (with two corruption draws), the traitor player draws 5+2 cards and the loyalist player draws 3+2 cards. The resulting coexistance battle will most likely kill all white scar space marines or force them to retreat.



#11 Dam

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:50 AM

Tanan said:

After winning scenario 1 with traitors for the first time, I think that the correct starting move is take out Khan with pods. The ideal troops for this operation are: 1 khorne thunderhawk, 2 slaaneshi chaos space marines and Fulgrim. If the imperial army is corrupted (with two corruption draws), the traitor player draws 5+2 cards and the loyalist player draws 3+2 cards. The resulting coexistance battle will most likely kill all white scar space marines or force them to retreat.

When you say "2 corruption draws", I take it you target that IA unit in the pre-game corruption step and then get another bite with Fulgrim? Also, there isn't really anywhere for the White Scars to retreat to. Imperials are the attacker in coexistance battles and retreating attacker remain in the region.

Interesting tactic, one I hadn't thought about.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#12 Three Headed Monkey

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:30 AM

Dam said:

Tanan said:

 

Also, there isn't really anywhere for the White Scars to retreat to. Imperials are the attacker in coexistance battles and retreating attacker remain in the region.

Interesting tactic, one I hadn't thought about.

Well, they would still be routed. It's a long time to the second refresh phase.



#13 Tanan

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:58 AM

When you say "2 corruption draws", I take it you target that IA unit in the pre-game corruption step and then get another bite with Fulgrim

Yes.

 

Also, there isn't really anywhere for the White Scars to retreat to. Imperials are the attacker in coexistance battles and retreating attacker remain in the region.

The Imperials might try to save the Khan by attacking the contested fortress with nearby IA forces (Khan and any remaining forces are automatically engaged). This attempt will most likely fail because Fulgrim's special ability.

This opening move is even deadlier in scenerios 2-6, because the traitor player can use Mortarion instead of Fulgrim. Any hero deployed outside of palace or heavy defence laser umbrella is in imminent danger.



#14 Dam

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 02:23 AM

So far most plays of scenarios 2 & 3 have seen Magnus and Mortarion are placed at Lions Gate during setup with 2 units of Chaos Space Marines each, then immediately attack the Forbidden Fortress from there. Magnus' bombard combined with Mortarion's reduction has managed to wipe out Imperial Fists and Blood Angels in different games.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#15 Tanan

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 02:48 AM

Dam said:

So far most plays of scenarios 2 & 3 have seen Magnus and Mortarion are placed at Lions Gate during setup with 2 units of Chaos Space Marines each, then immediately attack the Forbidden Fortress from there. Magnus' bombard combined with Mortarion's reduction has managed to wipe out Imperial Fists and Blood Angels in different games.

Why does the loyalist player deploy his valuable marines in such a way, when he knows that the traitor player can easily kill them all with his first order? Use Adeptus Arbites instead.



#16 Dam

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:06 AM

Adeptus are even worse (die quicker), you get fewer cards and Traitor can easily get the combat card that removes activation marker from target location. Dumping Space Marines into the Outer Palace (leaving the end fortresses for the Adeptus) means if they want to counter-attack (after the Traitors wipe out the Adeptus), Traitor will be sitting in a fortified location, much harder to push back. Setting the Marines somewhere other than the Imperial Palace region leaves the Emperor too exposed, so that's not an option IMO (except maybe the White Scars and Khan for raiding/assisting weak Traitor Spaceports). With 6 regions to cover (4x Outer Palace and the two end fortresses), 3x Adeptus and 6x Space Marines are hard-pressed to cover them without allowing the Traitor a shot at them. But Imperials can't leave any area uncovered or it's Drop Pods into the Palace right off the bat, nor can they use Imperial Army/tank units, corruption will get them.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#17 Three Headed Monkey

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 04:34 PM

Just letting one Arbites die is better than losing three Space Marine units and relinquishing the forbidden fortress anyway.

The units taking the fortress may now be in a good position, but remember there can only be three units in there, setting up a massive counter attack from both adjoining outer palace sections. Dorn will still get his bonus and Sanguinius' ability will counteract the fortification bonus. If both Traitor heroes moved into the fortress then the counter attack should at least kill the odd chaos space marine unit to break Mortarion's and Magnus' ability combo.

Not too mention that if that was the traitor's first move then Lion's Gate spaceport will be left relatively undefended too. You could deploy one army or tank unit in each of the adjacent areas to give you a good chance of at least one not corrupting to allow Khan to counter attack the spaceport. Leaving area between the spaceport and the fortress south of it (where Khan would be) so he cant be blocked off.

Divide and conquer.

Of course, he may just wipe out the Arbites and not move in. Or just with the warband to destroy a laser battery if there.

Or you could deploy enough pressure around the other spaceport that he has to act with them first. Or just risk the combo and have backup. Or fill the fortress with Custodes instead. Etc. Etc.



#18 Dam

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:33 PM

Three Headed Monkey said:

Not too mention that if that was the traitor's first move then Lion's Gate spaceport will be left relatively undefended too. You could deploy one army or tank unit in each of the adjacent areas to give you a good chance of at least one not corrupting to allow Khan to counter attack the spaceport. Leaving area between the spaceport and the fortress south of it (where Khan would be) so he cant be blocked off.

This most likely wouldn't work. In Scenarios 2-6, with the Titans generally tucked away inside the Factories, there aren't any must-bombard areas like in scenario 1 (the area with 2 Titans + 2 Tanks). With Space Marines hiding in fortified areas as well, that just leaves the Spaceports and any other areas to the pre-game barrages. Corruption + Bombarment I feel would clear the areas. Not to mention that Primach + 2 Chaos Space Marines would most likely be enough to hold on to the Spaceport (playing defensively), then just Port Landing for 12 combat ranks of reinforcements, with Khan now sitting out in the open or Drop Pods to Khan's area.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#19 Three Headed Monkey

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 05:41 PM

Dam said:

Three Headed Monkey said:

 

Not too mention that if that was the traitor's first move then Lion's Gate spaceport will be left relatively undefended too. You could deploy one army or tank unit in each of the adjacent areas to give you a good chance of at least one not corrupting to allow Khan to counter attack the spaceport. Leaving area between the spaceport and the fortress south of it (where Khan would be) so he cant be blocked off.

 

 

This most likely wouldn't work. In Scenarios 2-6, with the Titans generally tucked away inside the Factories, there aren't any must-bombard areas like in scenario 1 (the area with 2 Titans + 2 Tanks). With Space Marines hiding in fortified areas as well, that just leaves the Spaceports and any other areas to the pre-game barrages. Corruption + Bombarment I feel would clear the areas. Not to mention that Primach + 2 Chaos Space Marines would most likely be enough to hold on to the Spaceport (playing defensively), then just Port Landing for 12 combat ranks of reinforcements, with Khan now sitting out in the open or Drop Pods to Khan's area.


I suppose you would have to be lucky, but I dont think its outside the realms of possibility. You have four places to put units around the spaceport (leaving one empty so the khan cant be blocked by a corruption). You might as well take the opportunity and force the Traitor to use his bombardments on single unit areas.

How would you place the Imperial Army and Tank units in scenario 2? Massed and defending the plateau?

Besides, you dont have to attack the spaceport. Even if he is defensive, his forces will be split. Cue mass assaulty, including Khan, on the forbidden fortress. Or you could just hold out. Forcing him to put more effort into setting up a massive force for assault due to the stacking limits in fortified areas.
 



#20 Dam

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 07:37 PM

Actually, after the two Spaceports, assuming they both didn't turn fully over to the Traitors, bombardments (usually 1-3 left out of 4, one of the Spaceports generally gets targetted) are against single unit regions, because A) the Imperials don't mass their troops and B) all the juicy targets like I said are in hiding. Scenario 3 is even more likely to see bombardments against single unit regions, with 6 of them to allot. Of course, Traitors like to snip Imperial Fists Monastery and/or Forbidden Fortress as impassable in Scen 3 if possible, limiting the Imperial Palace to just 5 areas, forcing the Imperials to mass in a smaller area, meaty targets in all.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."





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