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Scouts in DW?


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#1 grailshapedbeacon

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 07:39 PM

I don't know if anyone has come across this yet, but is there anyway I could play some sort of scout sergeant in the upcoming game? I mean the idea of playing the dour old master of neophytes sneaking about like a ghost with a silenced bolter makes me happy! Glaring at his hardened kill-team brothers, reminding them of their time as scouts.

There has to some way I can do this...has to be.



#2 MILLANDSON

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 11:08 PM

Sure... just swap your power armour for carapace armour instead, would be my guess.

Scouts don't generally join the Deathwatch, since they want veterans, and Chapters would be unlikely to release their newbies/fresh blood to the Deathwatch before they become full battle-brothers. Your idea of the veteran scout sergeant works well though.


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#3 Arag

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 11:36 PM

MILLANDSON said:

Sure... just swap your power armour for carapace armour instead, would be my guess.

Scouts don't generally join the Deathwatch, since they want veterans, and Chapters would be unlikely to release their newbies/fresh blood to the Deathwatch before they become full battle-brothers. Your idea of the veteran scout sergeant works well though.

Not every chapter plays the scout=neophyte game. The Space Wolves are an example, their scouts are experienced warriors and not new recruits.



#4 MILLANDSON

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 05:40 AM

Fair point, though I've not seen anything in the fluff about Deathwatch Scouts. Every image or description of a Deathwatch Marine has been in full power armour.


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#5 Cifer

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 06:00 AM

Depending on whether you count it as canon, Dawn of War II provides an example: Cyrus, the Veteran Scout character, has been in Death Watch squads a few times. And considering the Inquisition prizes flexibility, I'd consider it foolish if they didn't include someone more stealthy than hulking giants in Power Armour.



#6 grailshapedbeacon

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 06:09 AM

Personally, I'd be more scared of the marine I CAN'T see.



#7 Kanluwen

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 02:20 PM

Arag said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

Sure... just swap your power armour for carapace armour instead, would be my guess.

Scouts don't generally join the Deathwatch, since they want veterans, and Chapters would be unlikely to release their newbies/fresh blood to the Deathwatch before they become full battle-brothers. Your idea of the veteran scout sergeant works well though.

 

 

Not every chapter plays the scout=neophyte game. The Space Wolves are an example, their scouts are experienced warriors and not new recruits.

The vast majority of Chapters don't play the Scout=Neophyte game. Who do you think trains the Scouts?

 

Veteran Marines who've shown an aptitude for the unconventional warfare that Scouts are trained in.



#8 Kage2020

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 03:30 PM

MILLANDSON said:

Fair point, though I've not seen anything in the fluff about Deathwatch Scouts. Every image or description of a Deathwatch Marine has been in full power armour.

Maybe it's another one of those cries for a game that handles generic Marines?  Not as if there is going to be much of a problem for handling Scouts.  After all, they're essentially the same as Marines without power armour.  Maybe a little bit less of a "toughness bonus," to use the common parlance. 

Kage



#9 Aajav-Khan

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:09 PM

grailshapedbeacon said:

Personally, I'd be more scared of the marine I CAN'T see.

   Exactly! One more reason why I was a bit disappointed by the Chapter selection for DW. There is an overabundance of melee Chapters but no real "commando" one ( ala Raven Guard ). Oh, well...until the Chapter creation rules are published I guess I`ll have to settle for the Space Vampire character.

    A bit of OT: I really miss the previous Codex for the TT Space Marines. You could create a Chapter with truly unique fighting style. My DIY Chapter was an infantry heavy Chapter capable of infiltrating  every non-vehicle, non-terminator model in the army. "Now. Battle-Brothers, be wevy wevy quiet. We are hunting Orks today." .



#10 The Hobo Hunter

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 11:49 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last fluff I read on the 10th company (scout company of traditional codex-adherent chapters), described it as having some of the most badass characters present.

The astartes in charge of the 10th company are the ones who've been through the battle companies, obtained their terminator honours, been through hell and back in the first company, and passed on leadership amongst veteran units to go back and train recruits.

I would imagine the commander of the 10th company as being the most hardass drill sergeant known to 40k, and probably the most experienced soldier in the chapter save for the chapter master himself, or perhaps a senior member of the "auxiliary" command staff like Librarians or Chaplains (since they don't go through the chapter's structure like 'regular' marines, it's possible they could survive long enough to be more experienced but not take the place a sergeant of equal calibre would occupy).

I can imagine a scout in the Deathwatch very easily. He's just one of the hardcases who used to lead scouts into their baptisms of fire, and happens to have become very adept at doing scout-like things. He can still just as easily slap on some power armour and grab a bolter and chainsword; after all, he's been through all that long before he came "full circle" and started retraining neophytes.

The only issue with this approach is that such a character would likely be a magnitude or two of experience higher than any "starting" marine, from what I can expect.



#11 grailshapedbeacon

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 08:09 AM

The Hobo Hunter said:

The only issue with this approach is that such a character would likely be a magnitude or two of experience higher than any "starting" marine, from what I can expect.

Aren't Deathwatch members fully experienced battle brothers, even veterans? I imagine our DW characters will be pretty badass starting out. I'm curious to see a sample char, to get a general idea of the scale of this game.



#12 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 11:59 AM

Depending on how character creation goes within DW a background package or alternate level should be more than sufficient to create a scout/recon specialist.



#13 Brother Praetus

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 02:04 PM

Here's a take on it I don't think anyone thought of yet.

You have your (Veteran) Scout Sergeant or a Space Wolf Scout working in the Deathwatch.  They would still likely have an issued suit of Power Armor given their more experienced nature to most Chapter's scouts, and would therefore likely don such while seconded to the Deathwatch for most missions.  I could see the occasional planet-side mission which might see such a marine wanting to don their Scout Carapace over a suit of Power Armor, but such would probably be a rare occurrence.  Mind you, as always, this is just my take on the possibility things we'll see.

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#14 Shamoth

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 07:25 PM

Yeah I thought a bit about this and I'm still missing a Scout Sergeant a little... And I wondered that they didnt have the Raven Guard, as covert ops types (this is not a "they are teh awesumest chapter y didnt u put them in!")...

Then I thought, hang on what ARE the Death Watch anyway? Pretty much everyone picked for it is a special operations type, right?



#15 Arag

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 12:52 AM

Aajav-Khan said:

grailshapedbeacon said:

 

Personally, I'd be more scared of the marine I CAN'T see.

 

 

   Exactly! One more reason why I was a bit disappointed by the Chapter selection for DW. There is an overabundance of melee Chapters but no real "commando" one ( ala Raven Guard ). Oh, well...until the Chapter creation rules are published I guess I`ll have to settle for the Space Vampire character.

    A bit of OT: I really miss the previous Codex for the TT Space Marines. You could create a Chapter with truly unique fighting style. My DIY Chapter was an infantry heavy Chapter capable of infiltrating  every non-vehicle, non-terminator model in the army. "Now. Battle-Brothers, be wevy wevy quiet. We are hunting Orks today." .

 

Yeah I miss those rules too. My own chapter went inert when the old Codex was replaced (couldn't use half of my figures, too many marines on bikes or with chainswords and bolt pistols). Right now I'm finishing the fluffy side of the chapter to later use it in DW. And I thoroughly ignored what the codex says right now.



#16 Zamnil Blackaxe

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 05:10 AM

Shamoth said:

Yeah I thought a bit about this and I'm still missing a Scout Sergeant a little... And I wondered that they didnt have the Raven Guard, as covert ops types (this is not a "they are teh awesumest chapter y didnt u put them in!")...

Then I thought, hang on what ARE the Death Watch anyway? Pretty much everyone picked for it is a special operations type, right?

It's the Chamber Militant(though you know this already) of the Ordo Xenos, Space Marines selected from across the 1000 different chapters to serve as one supremely dedicated alien-hunting fighting force with each marine bringing his parent chapters xenos killing philosophies to the table in their kill team missions.

Selection for the Deathwatch would vary from chapter to chapter in my imagination, but since there's little established fluff on the Deathwatch to give a definitive answer we'll just have to wait till the book gets released or come to our own conclusions, whichever is best.



#17 peterstepon

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 02:11 AM

Cifer said:

Depending on whether you count it as canon, Dawn of War II provides an example: Cyrus, the Veteran Scout character, has been in Death Watch squads a few times. And considering the Inquisition prizes flexibility, I'd consider it foolish if they didn't include someone more stealthy than hulking giants in Power Armour.

Exactly, Cyrus was in the Deathwatch and he still wears the scout armour that scouts use.

That is something which is rather bassackward about warhammer 40K Marine Chapters.  In the real world one becomes a grunt first, THEN, if he is good enough, joins the Special Forces (which fullfill the same roles that Scouts do in warhammer 40K).  All that stuff about scouting an area and then raining down fire on them is usually done by the elite specialists.  For a real world example, look at the invasion of Afghanistan when a few hundred Special Forces specialists acted as force multipliers to the Northern Alliance and routed the Taliban which was many times larger.  It seems odd that Space Marines begin as Special forces than "graduate" to grunts.

But, since scouts do cool stuff like acting as snipers, recon, explosives, and calling in orbital strikes, it would be a shame not to include them. 



#18 MILLANDSON

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 03:07 AM

peterstepon said:

 

Exactly, Cyrus was in the Deathwatch and he still wears the scout armour that scouts use.

That doesn't mean that he wore Scout Armour during his time as a Deathwatch member, however. It just means that he, like many veterans, decided to go back to act as veteran sergeants in the Scout Company.


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#19 Lord Richter Castus

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 03:32 AM

All space marines are "special forces". The misconception that they're footslogging grunts I think comes from the the tabletop. The guard are the footsloggers, the Astartes are the ones who show up to destroy vital enemy positions, etc. The role of the scouts is to give the newbies of the chapter a duty that doesn't put them as much in harm's way. Sniping, blowing up bridges, etc. are all low risk, high yield jobs. That's why they usually then graduate to devastators, not because they're the "heavy weapons guy", but because they're going to, theoretically, be further back from the front line(and enemy fire)due to their weapons' longer range.



#20 pyttman

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 12:46 AM

Space Marines are more than Special Forces. The Special Forces, (as we know them today), are the Stormtroopers or the Cadian Kasrkin, (read the "redemption Corps" novel). They are Crack Troopers. More than mere men.

Their role in the battlefield would be similar. Yes. But they are not just SF.

I think that when we think in the DW we must think in Black Ops operatives. Usually they will act in secrettly ways. Not been seen. No proofs. Only when the situation turn really desesperate is when they will be deploy openly in the battlefield, (like in "Warriors of Ultramar"). They seek their own agenda, (or the one of the inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos).

Anyway, in the last Game designer Diary the following is said:

"Some Battle-Brothers may gain enough renown to be granted the coveted honour of the Crux Terminatus, a special distinction that includes training in the use of powerful Terminator Armour, whilst other Deathwatch Space Marines might, at rare times, choose to use lighter Scout Armour when stealth is paramount."

So, it is possible the concept of the Deathwatch Scout.

For anyone that think that it is not possible for a SM in Power Armour to be sneaky, I suggest them to read the DW short story "Headhunter" from "Heroes of the Space Marines".






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