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What is your take on Space Marines?


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#1 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 07:55 PM

I am actually curious how others view space marines. Based on the back and forth in another thread I am curious on how divergent peoples views are.

By definition, they are genetically altered humans. They have multiple extra organs implanted that cause massive physiological changes. Changes to the point where calling them human is no longer truly applicable. They are stronger, faster, and tougher than any natural human could ever hope to be. Their minds are rebuilt so they no longer have true human emotions and they are capable of withstanding mental traumas that would break normal men. Their lifespans are also increased to the point where dying of old age is statistically nil. All of this before you strap on power armor or arm them with their enhanced weaponry.


What term other than demigod describes them better?

Does anyone view them as little more than a special forces unit of IG just better equipped?

At what point does a Space Marine, in your opinion, go from acceptable level of awesome-super-soldier-of-the-future to cheese filled ridiculousness?

Where do you draw the line with the gene seed derived "superpowers"?

How much do the novels/RPG/Table Top/Video Game fluff influence your views? Which source is more right:?

What sources of fluff are so bad as to be ignored?



#2 Herne

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:42 PM

My only SM fiction was Brothers of the Snake in which they're very human indeed.  The have pride, jealousy, compassion



#3 Atheosis

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:52 PM

They are super soldiers, not demigods.  The term demigod would apply much more aptly to the Primarchs.



#4 Sister Cat

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:44 PM

Atheosis said:

They are super soldiers, not demigods.  The term demigod would apply much more aptly to the Primarchs.

I agree with this completely.  Though I imagine the average Imperial citizen views them (regular SM's) as demigods.



#5 FatPob

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:59 PM

As the poster above - it is all about perspective.

From a hiver - they would be gods. From a feral barabarian they would be the pinnacle of a challenge.  To the Imperial army they are the special forces arm.  To the administratum they are disposable counters to be moved on a board.

I do disagree that they have no emotions, as the novels are full of emotions, mostly battle related - but they have passion and ambition.

I would say they are distanced from humanity by the very nature of their training, which could be compared to various special forces elements in existence today, but they are still human.



#6 Hellebore

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 01:42 AM

As objectively as possible. A human with augmented physiology, but human. Which means a bullet to the head will still kill them. Their skin is as resistant to bullets as normal human skin, because that's what it is. Their bones are slightly harder than normal human bones, but they are still just bones.

I find it silly to describe in detail what a space marine is and then expect people to accept they can do all the absurd things you see in the background. It's like describing the workings of a car which show it couldn't travel faster than 150 kph on a flat road, and then write a story where it's doing 250 kph.

 

I see space marines as humanity's monsters. Pretty much every alien race in the galaxy is superior to a human; orks are tougher, stronger, born warriors, eldar are faster, smarter and can perfect skills beyond human capabilities.

A space marine is a monster created to combat monsters. It is humanity's answer to the creatures in the dark. But in the end, they are still made of the same flesh any other human is made of.

Hellebore

 

 



#7 kenshin138

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 03:02 AM

 A Space Marine is a super human, plain and simple. As said above, they are "monsters" created to fight the monsters of the universe. Few other humans could even come close to the power of an Astartes; Assassins come to mind.

There does seem to be two different levels of "power" when it comes to marines though:

1. Tabletop. In the tabletop game a single guardsman could kill a marine if he was lucky. A single Aspect warrior has a good chance of killing a marine. Etc. They are really more akin to a better trained, better armoured guardsman.

2. Fluff. In the fluff a Marine is, for better words, a super "hero". A single guardsman could never hope to even pose a threat to a Marine, indeed an entire squad is barely a challenge. A single squad of Marines can sway an entire battle. They are better in almost every way than a "normal" human.

When it comes to an RPG. I expect the marines to be the fluff Marines, not the tabletop Marines. I expect my 5-man kill team to be able to wade into a horde of 35 Termagaunts and survive. To battle a Hive Tyrant and with some smart thinking and a bit of luck (read: fate point re-rolls and the like) win in the end. To be inserted into a rebellious Imperial battleship and fight their way to the bridge, capture the captain, slay the rest, and stop the heretics from allowing Imperial technology and secrets to fall into the hands of the Tau. I expect them to drop-pod alone onto a traitor forge world and track down and recover a captured tech-priest; all while fighting off murder servitors, chaos tech constructs, etc.

So yea, I expect the marines in Deathwatch to be "super", because that is what being an Astartes is...



#8 Sister Cat

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 03:55 AM

kenshin138 said:

When it comes to an RPG. I expect the marines to be the fluff Marines, not the tabletop Marines. I expect my 5-man kill team to be able to wade into a horde of 35 Termagaunts and survive. To battle a Hive Tyrant and with some smart thinking and a bit of luck (read: fate point re-rolls and the like) win in the end. To be inserted into a rebellious Imperial battleship and fight their way to the bridge, capture the captain, slay the rest, and stop the heretics from allowing Imperial technology and secrets to fall into the hands of the Tau. I expect them to drop-pod alone onto a traitor forge world and track down and recover a captured tech-priest; all while fighting off murder servitors, chaos tech constructs, etc.

So yea, I expect the marines in Deathwatch to be "super", because that is what being an Astartes is...

I agree with this as well.  "Super", but still not god-like.  I expect Primarchs to be god-like.  JMHO.



#9 Atheosis

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:05 AM

kenshin138 said:

2. Fluff. In the fluff a Marine is, for better words, a super "hero". A single guardsman could never hope to even pose a threat to a Marine, indeed an entire squad is barely a challenge. A single squad of Marines can sway an entire battle. They are better in almost every way than a "normal" human.

I see these kinds of statements made a lot about Marines.  Yet in the lore the protagonist is almost always a high ranking Marine or destined to be one.  In the background you have standard battle-brothers getting killed left and right.



#10 kenshin138

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:17 AM

Atheosis said:

 

 

I see these kinds of statements made a lot about Marines.  Yet in the lore the protagonist is almost always a high ranking Marine or destined to be one.  In the background you have standard battle-brothers getting killed left and right.

I've only really seen this in the Horus Heresy novels (which makes sense). Most of the time though Marines are shown to be super to normal humans. Now granted, they tend to fight stuff that is also super to humans so it kind of balances out. I never said they were un-killable.



#11 Kage2020

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 12:32 PM

Interpretations of "what" a Space Marine is is one of the things that makes Deathwatch quite a contentious game. One imagines that they're going to go down some rather traditional "human" routes so... Well, it will be interesting to see.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I am actually curious how others view space marines.

They remain, for me, bionetically and technological augmented humans, though the "human" refers more to the genetic component rather than the psychological one.  With that said, there is some evidence that at least for some Chapters that there might be alteration to the base human genome, but this seems to be more a catalyst then anything else.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

By definition, they are genetically altered humans.

By statement.  As above, while some Chapters have introduced what clearly seems to be a genetic component, it's not a necessary interpretation of other Chapters where bionetic augmentation with the zygotes is the only thing that is required.  

One could equally argue that GW merely jumped on the bandwagon of what was more flavoursome in the period.  In the days of the origins of Space Marines, prostheses were all the rage.  Now it's genetic augmentation.  That they capitalise upon pop culture is perhaps less of a surprise then their surprising "science."

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

They have multiple extra organs implanted that cause massive physiological changes.

There are numerous diseases that can cause massive physiological changes.  Do we consider the Marines "diseased?"  Consider that by modern definitions, all Marines are going to suffer from Gigantism.  When looking at the Secondary Heart we can go down the "cool" approach and make Marines uber as a result of it, or we can say that it operates synergistically with the Marine physiology to ameliorate the tendency of individuals with Gigantism to suffer from myocardial infarctions/heart attacks.  Or somewhere in between.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

Changes to the point where calling them human is no longer truly applicable.

I would consider the psychological changes to be in some ways far more significant.  Or, at least, potentially so.  Yet more often than not the writings focus on their physiological changes and make them broadly understandable in the context of "human."

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

They are stronger, faster, and tougher than any natural human could ever hope to be.

They are augmented.  It's interesting to note, however, that Shrine Assassins get a lot more out of their "human" physiology than the augmented Space Marine does with their uberness (arguably).  Are Assassin's demigods by your definition?  Eldar?

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

Their lifespans are also increased to the point where dying of old age is statistically nil.

That really depends which 'fluff' you happen to believe.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

What term other than demigod describes them better?

Post-human.

It's not the best term when one takes into account genre-conventions, but it is far more applicable than "demi-god."

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

Does anyone view them as little more than a special forces unit of IG just better equipped?

The augmention makes them better "equipped."  After that it is the training, which makes them better trained.  I find trying to argue "transcendent qualities" from that is somewhat harder.

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

At what point does a Space Marine, in your opinion, go from acceptable level of awesome-super-soldier-of-the-future to cheese filled ridiculousness?

Team Mode. 

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

Where do you draw the line with the gene seed derived "superpowers"?

When it goes beyond what the organs are described as doing and clearly goes into the realm of "awesome superpowers."  (Whether Deathwatch does this remains to be seen.)

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

How much do the novels/RPG/Table Top/Video Game fluff influence your views? Which source is more right:?

There is no "more right," only "more right for me and mine."  For Marines, as frequently noted, I tend to borrow some conventions from video games while trying to keep it a RPg (roleplaying game) rather than rpG (roleplaying game).

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

What sources of fluff are so bad as to be ignored?

An increasing number... 

More seriously, though, I've always found it is more interesting to interpret all source materials through the filter of your own interpretation.

Atheosis said >>>

They are super soldiers, not demigods. The term demigod would apply much more aptly to the Primarchs.

Even then it works on preference of interpretation.  After all, what are they "demi" too?

Sister Cat said >>>

I agree with this completely. Though I imagine the average Imperial citizen views them (regular SM's) as demigods.

Thus, mythology.  Though I would argue that they see them more as harbingers of the Emperor's wrath and vengeance.  Hence the old "Angels of Death" thing.

FatPob said >>>

I do disagree that they have no emotions, as the novels are full of emotions, mostly battle related - but they have passion and ambition.

Seems to be something that would have to be addressed in Deathwatch, then, though I have a feeling that they're going to be humans in power armour... Just aspected humans in power armour. 

Hellebore said >>>

I find it silly to describe in detail what a space marine is and then expect people to accept they can do all the absurd things you see in the background. It's like describing the workings of a car which show it couldn't travel faster than 150 kph on a flat road, and then write a story where it's doing 250 kph.

Amen to that, and agreed.

kenshin138 said >>>

There does seem to be two different levels of "power" when it comes to marines though:

1. Tabletop. In the tabletop game a single guardsman could kill a marine if he was lucky. A single Aspect warrior has a good chance of killing a marine. Etc. They are really more akin to a better trained, better armoured guardsman.

2. Fluff. In the fluff a Marine is, for better words, a super "hero". A single guardsman could never hope to even pose a threat to a Marine, indeed an entire squad is barely a challenge. A single squad of Marines can sway an entire battle. They are better in almost every way than a "normal" human.

In that case, I prefer 1.  The 'fluff' versions just seem to be teenage fantasies. 

I see little reason other than BL fiction (I LOL'd when I found it in the teenage fiction of a local B&N!), which tends to have a very simplistic approach to the protagonist.  Of course, with that said, most armies tend not to be armed with anti-SM missile launchers.  You can expect that they have some, and the more advanced the race the more likely that they're going to have weapons that are "Marine killers."  (Though we're getting into another discussion there.)

Sister Cat said >>>

I agree with this as well. "Super", but still not god-like. I expect Primarchs to be god-like. JMHO.

For me?  They should be appropriately simulated given the description of their abilities.  I don't need to seem them more buffed then they already are merely because they're "Marines!"

Kage



#12 Jude Order

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 06:20 AM

kenshin138 said:

There does seem to be two different levels of "power" when it comes to marines though:

1. Tabletop. In the tabletop game a single guardsman could kill a marine if he was lucky. A single Aspect warrior has a good chance of killing a marine. Etc. They are really more akin to a better trained, better armoured guardsman.

2. Fluff. In the fluff a Marine is, for better words, a super "hero". A single guardsman could never hope to even pose a threat to a Marine, indeed an entire squad is barely a challenge. A single squad of Marines can sway an entire battle. They are better in almost every way than a "normal" human.

The creators did this on purpose to scale the game better. If they had the marines from the fluff on the battlefield it would be a 2500pt army with 5 marines and that wouldnt really be fun. They say in one of the rule books that to include some of the mob armies you have to use the models as representations of a much larger force. That way they can put some of they crazy strong individuals of the universe on the same table as the common man.



#13 Lord Richter Castus

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 07:30 AM

Atheosis said:

kenshin138 said:

 

2. Fluff. In the fluff a Marine is, for better words, a super "hero". A single guardsman could never hope to even pose a threat to a Marine, indeed an entire squad is barely a challenge. A single squad of Marines can sway an entire battle. They are better in almost every way than a "normal" human.

 

 

I see these kinds of statements made a lot about Marines.  Yet in the lore the protagonist is almost always a high ranking Marine or destined to be one.  In the background you have standard battle-brothers getting killed left and right.

I think this has less to do with them being of higher rank(Ranks=power levels?) and more to do with plot armor. The same reason Han Solo can take a fistful of stormtroopers without getting a scratch but the standard rebel troopes die just as easily, I see in Captain Phinneas or whoever lasting through insurmountable odds while his unnamed redshirt battle brothers fall around him. Also, even in these events when space marines are dying, they're still not dropping with the rates of guardsmen. They ARE superior to the average human in most ways, at least on a biological level.

I expect my RPG characters to have a bit of plot armor, and thusly, the Deathwatch teams my group have will (hopefully) be better than the average guardsman.



#14 Atheosis

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 08:59 AM

Lord Richter Castus said:

Atheosis said:

 

kenshin138 said:

 

2. Fluff. In the fluff a Marine is, for better words, a super "hero". A single guardsman could never hope to even pose a threat to a Marine, indeed an entire squad is barely a challenge. A single squad of Marines can sway an entire battle. They are better in almost every way than a "normal" human.

 

 

I see these kinds of statements made a lot about Marines.  Yet in the lore the protagonist is almost always a high ranking Marine or destined to be one.  In the background you have standard battle-brothers getting killed left and right.

 

 

I think this has less to do with them being of higher rank(Ranks=power levels?) and more to do with plot armor. The same reason Han Solo can take a fistful of stormtroopers without getting a scratch but the standard rebel troopes die just as easily, I see in Captain Phinneas or whoever lasting through insurmountable odds while his unnamed redshirt battle brothers fall around him. Also, even in these events when space marines are dying, they're still not dropping with the rates of guardsmen. They ARE superior to the average human in most ways, at least on a biological level.

I expect my RPG characters to have a bit of plot armor, and thusly, the Deathwatch teams my group have will (hopefully) be better than the average guardsman.

Who said anything about not being better than the average guardsman.  Even on the tabletop Marines are a lot better than the average guardsman.



#15 Decessor

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 11:21 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

I am actually curious how others view space marines. Based on the back and forth in another thread I am curious on how divergent peoples views are.

By definition, they are genetically altered humans. They have multiple extra organs implanted that cause massive physiological changes. Changes to the point where calling them human is no longer truly applicable. They are stronger, faster, and tougher than any natural human could ever hope to be. Their minds are rebuilt so they no longer have true human emotions and they are capable of withstanding mental traumas that would break normal men. Their lifespans are also increased to the point where dying of old age is statistically nil. All of this before you strap on power armor or arm them with their enhanced weaponry.


What term other than demigod describes them better?

I'd call them transhuman super soldiers if I had to come up with a description. To the masses of the Imperium, demi-god works just fine!

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

Does anyone view them as little more than a special forces unit of IG just better equipped?

I don't think it makes sense that "real" Space Marines would only be slightly more effective than Imperial Guard. There are only a million SM (give or take) scattered throughout the Imperium. For them to be relevant and to be held in the kind of awe they are, to my mind it follows that they must have military power far beyond what their limited numbers would otherwise suggest.

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

At what point does a Space Marine, in your opinion, go from acceptable level of awesome-super-soldier-of-the-future to cheese filled ridiculousness?

IMO, few single opponents should be overpowering to a single SM and very few overpowering to an entire squad. Of course, "few" in the context of 40k means "every other week" since that's what the SMs are thrown against.

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

Where do you draw the line with the gene seed derived "superpowers"?

Say, Joe SM not wrestling a Carnifex to the ground.

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

How much do the novels/RPG/Table Top/Video Game fluff influence your views? Which source is more right:?

If they suffered anything like the casualties they did on the tabletop, the average SM chapter would be drained dry in a few years. So not that. TBH, I don't play the tabletop games and as much as I like it, would take Dawn of War with a pinch of salt. I find the RPGs and novels more interesting, though there is some dross in the latter.

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

What sources of fluff are so bad as to be ignored?

I've been lucky enough to avoid the really bad SM novels so I can't really help there. The original Rogue Trader has some great fluff but it's almost another setting in some ways. I say pick and choose what works for you from what sources you find and don't be hung up on matching a canon that isn't particularly fixed or consistent to begin with.

 



#16 Lord Richter Castus

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 06:50 PM

@Atheosis

I think I just misinterpreted your post. I thought you were refuting 'They are better in almost every way than a "normal" human' with your statement about Battle Brothers dying left and right, and how the protagonists are usually higher ranking brothers.



#17 The Hobo Hunter

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 08:11 PM

Hellebore said:

I see space marines as humanity's monsters. Pretty much every alien race in the galaxy is superior to a human; orks are tougher, stronger, born warriors, eldar are faster, smarter and can perfect skills beyond human capabilities.

A space marine is a monster created to combat monsters. It is humanity's answer to the creatures in the dark. But in the end, they are still made of the same flesh any other human is made of.

Hellebore

 

This is pretty much my idea of a space marine, form a thematic point of view. From a mechanical point of view I'm unsure and don't particularly care too much, though I swing on the "Inquisitor" perspective far more than the tabletop40k perspective.

 

A space marine, to me, is the greatest example of sacrifice. The monster who gave up his humanity to protect that very same humanity. They are not unthinking, unfeeling, killing-machines, but they're not far off in my opinion. There's emotions still present on a base 'human' level, but things like empathy, compassion, and remorse are either bred out, or selectively trained to be associated with what their creators want. I would not expect my players to play a space marine who dives on a grenade for a civilian, or shield a child with his body. It's possible, and not entirely un-astartes-like in my opinion (they are, after all, mankind's protectors), but it's not something I consider a space marine doing.

I consider the average space marine to be psycho- or socio-pathic in most cases, or at least exhibit severe symptoms of them for a slightly more "human" astartes. A marine is not trained to be nice; to fetch your cat from a tree. They are trained to violently eliminate powerful threats, and to conduct it with a somewhat-religious reverence. They are trained in this to the exclusion of all else. What would a marine care for knowledge of bartering, conversing, or other such social norms outside of their institution? What use would they possess? Aside from particular in-jokes or specific chapter construction, I can't imagine an astartes having a "normal" conversation outside the relevance of their lives.

I can't see a marine saying "Get this one Brother-Sergeant Tiberuius: two clerics, a commissar, and a heretic walk into a bar..."

What I can see is "Say, Brother Benedict, you're doing well on boltgun drills. Almost as good as that new neophyte Tulio!" Both marines chuckle at the great sarcastic wit on display then hit the showers.

 

To the average imperial citizen, space marines are incomprehensible angels of death. You ever read the Bible (or similar texts), where people who see an angel freak out, fall to the knees, and instantly believe they're going to die simply by seeing an angel? How they're described in terms not even imaginable? That's what an astartes is to the average person. Feared and respected with a simple religious awe.

From the average space marine; we've seen what happens when you kidnap and indoctrinate children to become single-minded killers. Now imagine a culture where this is not only accepted as the norm, but the initiates for the most part want to join the illustrious ranks, again usually for a religious purpose (the sky guardians return to take the greatest tribesmen as a sacrifice to God!).

That doesn't leave a lot of "human" left to me.



#18 Smitt

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 02:28 AM

 Arguments about fluff and perspective aside I see Space Marines in the same type of hero as the heroes of mythological Greece, Arthurian Knights and mythological Samurai. They hold the same position in my mind while obviously fitting into the 40K setting and this is where I'll take my inspiration from for plots and characters.



#19 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 03:19 AM

Smitt said:

Arguments about fluff and perspective aside I see Space Marines in the same type of hero as the heroes of mythological Greece,

I should be noted that, technically speaking, the ancient Greek concept of heroes is essentially synonymous with the idea of demigods, and in most cases, the heroes of greek mythology literally were demigods.


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#20 Kage2020

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 04:53 AM

The Hobo Hunter said:

That doesn't leave a lot of "human" left to me.

Pretty much how I see it, although I find the conceit that PCs are raised beyond the norm to be a pleasing solution to encompass Marine PC characters.  What "humanity" remains is something that I see as being controlled and directed by the Chapter traditions, which are essentially there to act as a psychological break; a ground.  It is an interesting question as to how one would model this in an RPG, though.  One could certainly see a reason just to model them as humans with lots of strange organs in them. 

Completely incidentally, and something that I always end up doing in these discussions, the three quotes that have always struck me as being incredibly appropriate for an interpretation of Marines.  YMMV with this, but just thought that I would (re)mention them anyway.  The first is perhaps the weakest, but I like it nonetheless.

Gabriel from The Prophecy (1995) >>>

I'm an angel. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why.

Thomas Dagget from The Prophecy (1995) >>>

Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?

And, finally: 

Kyle Reese from The Terminator (1984) >>>

Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

Kage






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