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the great crusade


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#1 the 8 spider

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 09:53 AM

from france

didn't get my hand on the book . so it is a very short question does the game is flexible enough to play during the great crusade with a little adaptation?



#2 Atheosis

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 10:19 AM

the 8 spider said:

from france

didn't get my hand on the book . so it is a very short question does the game is flexible enough to play during the great crusade with a little adaptation?

As DW hasn't come out no one can really say.  I would imagine it won't be that hard.  You'll have to come up with Chapter specific rules however.



#3 Kage2020

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 10:56 AM

That and make some determinations as to whether the modern Marines represented degraded forms of Marines from the Horus Heresy.  In which  case you might have to make the Marines even more uber than they may be represented in Deathwatch

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#4 Atheosis

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 11:16 AM

Kage2020 said:

That and make some determinations as to whether the modern Marines represented degraded forms of Marines from the Horus Heresy.  In which  case you might have to make the Marines even more uber than they may be represented in Deathwatch

Kage

I would heartily discourage such a course of action.  The lore doesn't in anyway support such a notion.  Yes some Chapters have lost the function of certain implants, but Space Marines are still just as bad-ass as ever when it comes to killing stuff.



#5 the 8 spider

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:08 PM

from france

stupid question maybe but can you define "uber"? the fiction about the heresy helps a lot to have a idea of how they are. the only exception is the lost two legion.

what about the other forces? and equipement? i mean in "legion" some unit in the imperial army have very specific equippement. any idea?

well thanks



#6 FatPob

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 02:15 AM

Atheosis said:

Kage2020 said:

 

That and make some determinations as to whether the modern Marines represented degraded forms of Marines from the Horus Heresy.  In which  case you might have to make the Marines even more uber than they may be represented in Deathwatch

Kage

 

 

I would heartily discourage such a course of action.  The lore doesn't in anyway support such a notion.  Yes some Chapters have lost the function of certain implants, but Space Marines are still just as bad-ass as ever when it comes to killing stuff.

A lot depends on your take on how technology has improved in the 10,000 year period.  It's mentioned many a time that much technology on how to create certain equipment/gear/stuff was lost, and that there was suggested a limit on Armour as it could only be repaired not recreated.

next you have to understand how the mechanicum have gone from a scientifc and tech based organisation to a pseudo-religious priesthood that can only really repair and lacks the imagination of creation of it's former incarnation.

In my mind as Kage2020 says, the equipment was better in the great crusade as opposed to gear that is in use in 40K.



#7 Atheosis

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 03:27 AM

FatPob said:

Atheosis said:

 

Kage2020 said:

 

That and make some determinations as to whether the modern Marines represented degraded forms of Marines from the Horus Heresy.  In which  case you might have to make the Marines even more uber than they may be represented in Deathwatch

Kage

 

 

I would heartily discourage such a course of action.  The lore doesn't in anyway support such a notion.  Yes some Chapters have lost the function of certain implants, but Space Marines are still just as bad-ass as ever when it comes to killing stuff.

 

 

A lot depends on your take on how technology has improved in the 10,000 year period.  It's mentioned many a time that much technology on how to create certain equipment/gear/stuff was lost, and that there was suggested a limit on Armour as it could only be repaired not recreated.

next you have to understand how the mechanicum have gone from a scientifc and tech based organisation to a pseudo-religious priesthood that can only really repair and lacks the imagination of creation of it's former incarnation.

In my mind as Kage2020 says, the equipment was better in the great crusade as opposed to gear that is in use in 40K.

Actually the equipment was inferior across the board.  You should brush up on your knowledge regarding Astartes gear before making a bunch of statements that are completely inaccurate.



#8 MILLANDSON

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 04:13 AM

Atheosis said:

 

Actually the equipment was inferior across the board.  You should brush up on your knowledge regarding Astartes gear before making a bunch of statements that are completely inaccurate.

Tactical Dreadnought Armour - aka Terminator Armour. I rest my case.

You should brush up on your knowledge regarding Astartes gear before making a statement that is completely inaccurate.


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#9 Lightbringer

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 04:16 AM

Atheosis said:

 

Actually the equipment was inferior across the board.  You should brush up on your knowledge regarding Astartes gear before making a bunch of statements that are completely inaccurate.

 

 

That seems a little harsh. The true position actually seems very complicated. Some of the Traitor Legions seem to have had access to very up to date patterns of equipment at the time of the Heresy, whereas some were equipped with older gear.

Take the Death Guard: they seem to have had almost exclusively Mark II and Mark III armour, which perhaps contributed to their disenchantment with the Imperium, as rival legions were equipped with brand new, up to date gear. Conversely the Emperor's Children had pretty up to date gear including Mark IV, V and even Mark VI armour.

Look at the Deathclaw assault pod: the Forge World write up explicitly describes it as more advanced than a "modern" Drop Pod - indeed it's almost like a small shuttle, and can also be used in boarding actions. 

"inferior" is quite a harsh judgement on equipment like that. A more nuanced interpretation is that a lot of the equipment utilised by the traitor legions is not actually less advanced than the equipment used by modern space marines, but in fact more advanced... though constructed using experimental and (in the superstitious world of 40k) less "spiritually pure" techniques and therefore prone to attract unclean warp spirits.

Another example is spaceship construction. for some reason after the Horus Heresy  the Imperium abandoned a number of classes of spacecraft - repulsive class grand cruiser, murder class cruiser etc. These ships on the whole were faster than their modern counterparts and had longer ranged firepower. So are they "inferior"? Perhaps...if their warp engines are more prone to dragging the crew into the warp... But this doesn't make them necessarily inferior in terms of performing well in battle.    



#10 Lightbringer

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 04:48 AM

Anyway, just to go back to the original poster's point, I'd say it should be really easy to convert DW into a Great Crusade era game. I imagine within seconds of people getting their hands on the book we're going to see dozens of homebrewed rules for things like:-

-Horus Heresy era Marines, including all first founding chapters (bar the two "missing" chapters) 30k weapons and equipment

-dozens of bespoke fan made chapters

-Grey Knights

...and so on. Exciting times!



#11 Atheosis

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 06:22 AM

Lightbringer said:

Atheosis said:

 

Actually the equipment was inferior across the board.  You should brush up on your knowledge regarding Astartes gear before making a bunch of statements that are completely inaccurate.

 

 

That seems a little harsh. The true position actually seems very complicated. Some of the Traitor Legions seem to have had access to very up to date patterns of equipment at the time of the Heresy, whereas some were equipped with older gear.

Take the Death Guard: they seem to have had almost exclusively Mark II and Mark III armour, which perhaps contributed to their disenchantment with the Imperium, as rival legions were equipped with brand new, up to date gear. Conversely the Emperor's Children had pretty up to date gear including Mark IV, V and even Mark VI armour.

Look at the Deathclaw assault pod: the Forge World write up explicitly describes it as more advanced than a "modern" Drop Pod - indeed it's almost like a small shuttle, and can also be used in boarding actions. 

"inferior" is quite a harsh judgement on equipment like that. A more nuanced interpretation is that a lot of the equipment utilised by the traitor legions is not actually less advanced than the equipment used by modern space marines, but in fact more advanced... though constructed using experimental and (in the superstitious world of 40k) less "spiritually pure" techniques and therefore prone to attract unclean warp spirits.

Another example is spaceship construction. for some reason after the Horus Heresy  the Imperium abandoned a number of classes of spacecraft - repulsive class grand cruiser, murder class cruiser etc. These ships on the whole were faster than their modern counterparts and had longer ranged firepower. So are they "inferior"? Perhaps...if their warp engines are more prone to dragging the crew into the warp... But this doesn't make them necessarily inferior in terms of performing well in battle.    

I'm curious where you're getting all of this.  Mark VII and Mark VIII armour is superior in virtually all ways to Heresy era armour.  Thunderhawks are superior to Stormbirds.  Land speeders weren't even used until after the Heresy.  Same with assault cannons and plasma cannons.  

I can't really comment on the ships, but Astartes equipment is categorically better in the 41st millenium than in the 31st.

    



#12 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:31 AM

Atheosis said:

Thunderhawks are superior to Stormbirds.

Debateable. It's noted that many legions preferred the Stormbird due to its heavier firepower and greater transport capacity, and were reluctant to replace their tried-and-tested craft with the smaller STC-derived Thunderhawks that were being put into service at the end of the Great Crusade.

Atheosis said:

Land speeders weren't even used until after the Heresy.

But jetbikes were, as were a number of other anti-grav vehicles, few examples of which remain in service. The STC for the technology around which the Land Speeder was built was discovered at about the same time as the Land Raider STC, so the technology existed to produce them... they just weren't widely used at the time.

The only certain statement about the differences between Heresy-era and contemporary Imperial technology is that it's different. Some things existed then which are legends at worst and ancient relics at best, and some areas of technology were far more developed (for example, the MIU links on Crusade-era Titans were more sophisticated and less permanently-invasive than those used in the 41st Millennium). At the same time, in other areas, STC designs have been rediscovered (Razorbacks, for example) or revised in light of additional data found (the updated forms of Rhino and Land Raider, the introduction of various sanctioned Predator and Land Raider variants). It cannot be said that the technology in one era is categorically better than in the other, because both had a different set of technological advances, due to different technologies being variously lost and found in the intervening millennia.


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#13 Lightbringer

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:57 AM

Atheosis said:

 

I'm curious where you're getting all of this.  Mark VII and Mark VIII armour is superior in virtually all ways to Heresy era armour.  Thunderhawks are superior to Stormbirds.  Land speeders weren't even used until after the Heresy.  Same with assault cannons and plasma cannons.  

I can't really comment on the ships, but Astartes equipment is categorically better in the 41st millenium than in the 31st.

 

 

OK... let's start with where I'm getting all this...

Death Guard: If anyone's ever seen any member of the Death Guard wearing anything other than Mark II or Mark III or terminator armour, shout out...

Emperor's Children: Horus Heresy Collected visions Mark IV page 193, Mark V page 287, Mark VI p18

Deathclaw assault pod: p 157 Imperial Armour Volume 6: "A technologically superior boarding craft that doubles as both a drop pod and assault boat..." (my emphasis...)

Spaceships: Battlefleet Gothic. Compare a Lunar Class (modern Imperial, p110) with Chaos Murder Class (archaic Imperial/Chaos p123). Both roughly the same points (180 vs 170): the Lunar class is slower (20 cm vs 25 cm) and has shorter ranged firepower (30cm v 45cm)

 

Turning to your second point, Astartes equipment is NOT categorically better in the 41st Millenium than in the 31st. SOME of it is...but by no means all of it. No_1 has already pointed out that in the 31st Millenium jetbikes were in far wider use than they are in the 41st Millenium.

There is no material difference in the profile of Chaos Marine armour or boltguns from those of Imperial marines. Indeed, there is no material difference in rules terms in ANY 40K system between different Marks of armour. In the White Dwarf which introduced the different armour Marks, it was explicitly stated that Mark II armour is probably the most sophisticated grade of all, albeit possibly the most difficult to maintain, a Ferrari to the Mark VI's Ford Transit.

There are some sophisticated "modern" weapons in the Imperial armoury that are not in the armoury of chaos marines (assault cannon vs Reaper autocannon) but it would be a great mistake to suggest that these represent a general rule. On the whole, I would say that the contrary is true: while Chaos Marines typically employ older patterns of armour, their other tech is equal to or often exceeds that of the "modern" Imperial marine. 

The same holds true of other chaos tech: unconstrained by the hidebound rules of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Hereteks emploed by the chaos powers are free to experiment and innovate, leading to bizarre but effective warp constructs like the Defiler, Stalk Tanks et al...  



#14 Kage2020

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 04:44 PM

Atheosis said >>>

I would heartily discourage such a course of action. The lore doesn't in anyway support such a notion. Yes some Chapters have lost the function of certain implants, but Space Marines are still just as bad-ass as ever when it comes to killing stuff.

That's one perspective, for sure.  The "lore" does, however, offer suggests that the Marines of yore are superior in many regards to the ones that have come after.  If nothing else, it subscribes to one of the standard Themes yacked on in Dark Heresy, but there are also a number of allusions to it in the novels.  It has little to do with the novels and more to do with changing writing perspectives.  Consider, for example, that Marines were never "immortal" until we started talking about the Horus Heresy.  Sure, anecdotal and with a number of caveats, but coupled with the information from the novels...?

It's not so easily washed away with heartily discouraging anything.  After all, as termed it was a suggestion, not a decree.

the 8 spider said >>>

stupid question maybe but can you define "uber"? the fiction about the heresy helps a lot to have a idea of how they are. the only exception is the lost two legion.

As applied in common forum parlance?  "The ultimate, above all, the best, top, something that nothing is better than."

FatPob said >>>

A lot depends on your take on how technology has improved in the 10,000 year period. It's mentioned many a time that much technology on how to create certain equipment/gear/stuff was lost, and that there was suggested a limit on Armour as it could only be repaired not recreated.

On the other hand, the general trend is towards degrading technology... Well, except with Marine power armour.  Go figure. 

Atheosis said >>>

Actually the equipment was inferior across the board. You should brush up on your knowledge regarding Astartes gear before making a bunch of statements that are completely inaccurate.

Youch.  Double-edged sword since fans tend to filter information towards preference.  I agree with you regards to Space Marine technology, but feel that you've missed out on a number of nuances with regards to Theme and 'fluff.'

On the other hand?  Hey, I haven't been keeping up with the current "lore."  Oooh... sounds ominous when I call it that. 

Lightbringer said >>>

Anyway, just to go back to the original poster's point, I'd say it should be really easy to convert DW into a Great Crusade era game. I imagine within seconds of people getting their hands on the book we're going to see dozens of homebrewed rules...

Amen to that.

Kage



#15 Lightbringer

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 09:57 PM

Kage2020 said:

  Consider, for example, that Marines were never "immortal" until we started talking about the Horus Heresy.  Sure, anecdotal and with a number of caveats, but coupled with the information from the novels...?

It's not so easily washed away with heartily discouraging anything.  After all, as termed it was a suggestion, not a decree.

Yeah, this is an interesting one, isn't it? I must admit I've not read all of the Horus Heresy novels, but I do recall a mention in "Horus Rising" that one of the characters mentions he believes that he is effectively immortal until killed in battle.

There are a few possible explanations for this:

1. He's right, and Heresy-era marines were immortal, but something changed subsequently. Personally, I don't entirely buy this theory, but I must admit that logically it could be correct. Perhaps the death of a Primarch somehow causes the geneseed of a chapter to degrade in some way? Sanguinius seems to have psychically imprinted his legion with memories of his death, perhaps the death of other primarchs had a knock-on effect upon longevity in some way?

2. He's wrong, pre Heresy marines weren't immortal, but they believed they were at the time. The duration of the great crusade is a little obscure, so we don't know if it took decades or centuries. It may be possible for the first Marine to have been created at the very start of the Great Crusade and to still have participated in the Horus Heresy within the "normal" marine lifespan of 400 or so years. A marine like that wouldn't actually KNOW that he "only" has a lifespan of 400 years or so, because no marines had yet died of old age. 

3. Perhaps some of the first founding legion marines WERE actually immortal. We already know that some loyalist chapters live longer lives than others: the Blood Angels live to be 1000yrs plus, compared to Ultramarines living circa 400yrs. Perhaps marines of the Luna wolves/Sons of Horus legion lived even longer? Or forever? 

All speculation of course....   Is anyone out there able to line up the sources which state that pre heresy marines were immortal and present them here? 'Cos I'd be interested in analysing them...I'm only going myself on a throwaway line in Horus Rising, but I'm aware there are other sources.



#16 UncleArkie

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 11:08 PM

While the overall level of technology in 40K has dropped in the 10000+  years since the great crusades some things will improve regardless during war, armour, weapons wil improve in the chapters as techmarines tinker, change and upgrade the gear depending on the situation and then send the new inventions back to mars for approval from where they become canonised by the machine cult and desseminated out to the other chapters. So while technology and enlighenment died in the new dark age small oasis' of knowledge remained and thrived in the form of the chapters.

As for the imortality issue, maybe some form of genetic degeneration has caused the AA to become less like promethean demi  gods and more like post human super soldiers.



#17 FatPob

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 11:18 PM

In many ways it depends on how you interpret the author's statments in the novels.  For example it clearly states in the heresy novels that the space marines are never aging (those who got given the original gene seed) - effectively immortal till killed in combat.  Though even death wasn't the end for some. The truly heroic and stallwart got entombed in a dreadnought.

However It may be that in that time no full Astartes had actually died of ald age, put quite simply they most likely died in combat before old age sets on.

Another factor is the Warp.  It is more then possible to get caught in the Warp and exit 100's or even 1,000's years later.

Ultimately though, there doesn't seem to be any Astartes who have lived from the heresy to current times.

Another factor is the Geneseed can change through genetic mutation, and so what is used nowadays may be in some ways "weaker" then the original progenoid implanted in the original space marines. 

 



#18 UncleArkie

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 03:39 AM

FatPob said:

Ultimately though, there doesn't seem to be any Astartes who have lived from the heresy to current times. 

 

Bjorn the Fell-Handed was alive in the time of Russ, yes hes entombed, but he's still alive. Also several traitor marines remain from the time of the great war, Cypher being one.



#19 Lightbringer

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 03:46 AM

That's different, though. Bjorn's a dreadnought. Dreadnought armour keeps the occupant alive indefinately. Traitor Marines have spent their lives in the Eye of Terror, where time moves strangely, meaning that they may have experienced the last 10,000 yrs as just a few decades.

Cypher is a unique (or fairly unique) abberration, and it's hard to extrapolate from him. To be honest, I don't like the whole Cypher storyline...thought I've got to accept it's part of the canon, however annoying. No sensible explanation has ever been offered as to why Cypher (or the other Unforgiven) remain alive 10,000yrs after the Heresy.



#20 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:32 AM

Lightbringer said:

No sensible explanation has ever been offered as to why Cypher (or the other Unforgiven) remain alive 10,000yrs after the Heresy.

That's easy - the Warp.

It would be a mistake to assume that every single veteran of the Heresy - be they Traitor Legionnaires, Fallen or something else besides - still alive in the 41st Millennium has lived through every intervening second. While the most powerful are certainly ten millennia old, give or take a few centuries (accounting for the vagaries of warp travel), others may have skipped centuries or millennia, appearing from the Warp such that events in their recent past are ancient history to everyone else.

The Fallen in particular are a good example of this - they were, reportedly, scattered through space and time by the cataclysm that tore Caliban asunder. One of the Fallen encountered on a backwater world in the middle of the 39th Millennium may still only be a century or two old, with the destruction of Caliban still being a recent memory.


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