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Glad to see that game of thrones wants new players.


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#1 cerebralcortex

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 12:23 PM

I just talked to a friend who went to Minnesota to play in the Fantasy Flight Game week end. So we are new to Game of Thrones and he decides to play in the tournament after he played in the Warhammer tournament. In the warhammer tournament the new cards that came out last week were legal. So my friend just figured that the new GoT cards must be legal as well. So becau8se we has a very small card pool he puts them in not knowing they were no legal.

In his very first game he plays one of the illegal cards an the guy he is laying say6s it is not legal yet. So my friend explains to him that he is new and did not know, but the guy makes the huge deal of it. He calls over a judge and makes sure my friend gets disqualified and is very rude to my friend. My friend would have easily gave him the win because he was not there to win, but just to learn the game.

So now my friend has about the worst experience he could have had in this game. We were both looking forward to going to Gencon to play GoT, but know I just don’t know.



#2 cerebralcortex

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 12:27 PM

cerebralcortex said:

I just talked to a friend who went to Minnesota to play in the Fantasy Flight Game week end. So we are new to Game of Thrones and he decides to play in the tournament after he played in the Warhammer tournament. In the warhammer tournament the new cards that came out last week were legal. So my friend just figured that the new GoT cards must be legal as well. So becau8se we has a very small card pool he puts them in not knowing they were no legal.

In his very first game he plays one of the illegal cards an the guy he is laying say6s it is not legal yet. So my friend explains to him that he is new and did not know, but the guy makes the huge deal of it. He calls over a judge and makes sure my friend gets disqualified and is very rude to my friend. My friend would have easily gave him the win because he was not there to win, but just to learn the game.

So now my friend has about the worst experience he could have had in this game. We were both looking forward to going to Gencon to play GoT, but know I just don’t know.

 

Sorry my typing is very bad here. I was trying to type as I was talking to my friend and I was a little upset.



#3 Lars

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 03:43 AM

sorry he had a bad experience. i'd wager it will be his only one if he continues with the game.



#4 ktom

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 05:15 AM

cerebralcortex said:

I just talked to a friend who went to Minnesota to play in the Fantasy Flight Game week end. So we are new to Game of Thrones and he decides to play in the tournament after he played in the Warhammer tournament. In the warhammer tournament the new cards that came out last week were legal. So my friend just figured that the new GoT cards must be legal as well. So becau8se we has a very small card pool he puts them in not knowing they were no legal.

In his very first game he plays one of the illegal cards an the guy he is laying say6s it is not legal yet. So my friend explains to him that he is new and did not know, but the guy makes the huge deal of it. He calls over a judge and makes sure my friend gets disqualified and is very rude to my friend. My friend would have easily gave him the win because he was not there to win, but just to learn the game.

So now my friend has about the worst experience he could have had in this game. We were both looking forward to going to Gencon to play GoT, but know I just don’t know.

I'm sorry your friend had a bad experience - and I'm sorry that his opponent pushed the issue in such a negative way.

It sounds like there were a bunch of misunderstandings that got carried away. The first thing I'd want to know was when, where and if FFG had announced the legal cards for the event. Did your friend have enough time and warning to "clean" his deck before the event? And which cards did your friend have that were illegal? From your comment that they weren't legal "yet," I would guess they were from the most recent Chapter Pack (The Wildling Horde). New players should not have been expected to know the old FFG rule that cards that had been in retail release for less than a week (as The Wildling Horde pack was at the time) are not legal for tournament events. And with a CP less than a week from release, they should have had a reminder announcement when people were registering. Sounds like if the staff at the Event Center had been on the ball with this issue, it could have been avoided.

I'm not sure from the information here what the reaction was when your friend's opponent noticed and asked about the illegal cards. What did your friend do? Did he offer to remove the offending card from the game? Did he offer to forfeit the match and then go talk to the TO? Or did he just shrug and say "I'm new; I didn't know. Your move." Honest mistakes in deckbuilding are not unheard of - the two most common examples are forgetting to check the banned list and putting a "House X only" card from a different House into the deck. Sportsmanship is usually the primary indicator of how "honest" the mistake is. The usual policy at AGoT events has been that when the first honest mistake is are found in a player's deck, the individual game is forfeited, the offending card(s) are removed from the deck and the player is only disqualified from the event completely if that then brings the deck below the legal minimum of 60 cards. Rebuilding the deck between rounds is usually not allowed, but there have been some instances where compromises have been made. If after these efforts, a second mistake is found, that's when the player is usually "summarily" disqualified.

Point being, there is precedent for a way to handle the situation that could have been used before anything hurtful or offensive happened. It sounds like the opponent may have over-reacted and that the judge may not have defused the situation very well. It should never have gotten to the level it did, and the judge should not have let the opponent "make sure" your friend was disqualified.

Anyway, sorry for that little rant here, but as someone who has judged many AGoT events, including GenCon, it bothers me that the TOs let it go this far. AGoT players usually display a great deal of understanding and sportsmanship and the situation you describe is not unknown or new. Most work with the judges and the player who has made an honest mistake to come up with a fair solution for everyone - and allows all players to continue in the event if at all possible. I've seen a lot of incredible sports in AGoT. For example, I've seen someone lose their deck between rounds and their opponent help them find it and start the round late instead of taking the automatic win. I've seem people forget to stand their characters in the Standing phase and their opponents remind them half way through Marshalling. I have seen veterans help newbs rebuild their decks between rounds in draft tournaments (where rebuilding between rounds is legal).

Usually, this community looks at "friendly competition" and emphasizes the "friendly" instead of the "competition." It is one of the things that has long attracted many of the more mature players from other CCGs to the game. I'm sorry this experience was so distasteful to you and your friend. It sounds like a couple of small things went wrong and added up to a big thing. I hope you will not let the one experience sour you on AGoT events or the community. It really is the exception more than the rule in my experience.



#5 ASoIaFfan

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 10:12 AM

I didn't know about that rule either, Ktom (cards out less than a week are not legal). Fortunately for me I had also just picked up the latest CP and when I commented to Nate that there was a card in there I wouldn't mind having in my deck he told me the rule about cards available for less than a week before a tournament are not legal. If not for that chance dialog I likely would have been booted as well, since this was my first tournament and I didn't know about that either.

Maybe to avoid such things it would be a good idea for TO's or whoever is in charge to review decklists *before* the tournament actually starts, to make sure everyone's deck is legal. We all had to submit decklists, so this should be fairly easy to accomplish. The lists don't have to be studied in detail, just skimmed to make sure no illegal cards are in the deck.

I concur with those who feel the GoT community in general and at large is a mature, fun to play with group.



#6 ktom

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 10:21 AM

ASoIaFfan said:

Maybe to avoid such things it would be a good idea for TO's or whoever is in charge to review decklists *before* the tournament actually starts, to make sure everyone's deck is legal. We all had to submit decklists, so this should be fairly easy to accomplish. The lists don't have to be studied in detail, just skimmed to make sure no illegal cards are in the deck.

Depending on the size of the event, this can be prohibitive, especially if people come running in 5 minutes before the event, don't have their decklist done at the time of registration (there are always a few people scribbling out decklists after they first walk to the registration table) or simply write down the wrong thing. As a policing tool, I tend to find decklists more trouble than they are worth.

The better, and more reliable, solution in my opinion is for the TO to announce the legal cardpool during registration and tell everyone to check their decks before the event starts - along with the "this is what happens if you are found with an illegal card" policy. It's especially a good idea when there have been changes to the banned list or a new retail release within 1 week of the event. 

We've done this sort of announcement at GenCon for 2008 and 2009. In both years, someone scrambled to make changes to their deck. And in both years, there was never a problem once the event began.



#7 JerusalemJones

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 02:19 PM

I was there when it happened, and although it didn't happen in my game, it was someone from my meta (King Blith). He only had three cards total in his deck from Wildling Horde (Balpn Swann and Misinformation x2). I also don't think it would have changed the outcome of Brad winning, but after losing in the melee to Greg the night before Brad really wanted to get a rematch and I think he just took it a little to extreme.

I'm sorry your friend had a negative experience because of this. I would have liked to have helped your friend out, and would have helped him out with his deck. I gave him some advice, but in retrospect after what you said about his experience he might have taken it as more negative about his deck than as helpful advice.

Even though this was a small field of only 9 players, some players take the game very seriosuly, especially when they want to win. After losing my first game and badly I was pretty pissed off. When Greg played Seth in round two and we were all watching because our games were over and it appeared Seth was winning Greg asked us to leave, but in a tone of voice that came off sounding rude and abrupt. He had a good point he was concerned about having one of us watching him playing him in the next round or finals. But it did come off stronger than expected.

I would like to ask you and your friend to take this experience with a grain of salt and give the game another try. Outside of major tournaments, we are really a very casual group of players who love the game and want to share that love with other people. At Gen Con, the major event will be a mix of the competitive and the casual, and you might come across some more "anal" players and comments, but you will also find people who will help you with your game and you'll likely have a great time anyway.



#8 Twn2dn

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, it sounds like what you experienced was something that is rare in AGOT. In all of my gaming experience (with Magic The Gathering, AGOT, and other card games), I have found that AGOT players are the best bunch. They tend to be very friendly. If some were unfriendly, it is likely that they were stressed/testy from the competition. This isn't a justification, per se, just an explanation for why you probably encountered the exception to the rule.

From first hand experience, I can tell you that major tournaments in ANY game (whether it's a board game, cards, or sports) tend to result in stretched nerves, and that this is also true in AGOT...though again, less so than in other card games I've played. (For example, I'm genuinely very surprised that your friend's opponent did not simply ask your friend to "reveal and then remove from the game" the discarded cards as he drew them. As a TO, I recognize that might not be a good tournament-wide policy, but as an opponent and fellow gamer, that's what I would do.)

Also, there are times when I've just been plain grouchy at tournaments. At a NYC tournament somewhat recently, I was a bit short with my opponent (Paul) in the finals game, despite him being a really stand-up guy. It wasn't him so much as it was 9pm...and I had played a heavy control build that required a lot of attention and led to long games. After 8 hours of almost continuous gaming, I was quite a bit less patient than usual. Again, not a justification, but it happens.

I guess bottom line is that you don't really see this behavior unless it's a MAJOR tournament (with good prize support), and even then it's rare at tournaments. (As Ktom said though, the whole thing could have been easily avoided had the TO been a little more on top of things.)



#9 LetsGoRed

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 04:17 PM

ktom said:

ASoIaFfan said:

Maybe to avoid such things it would be a good idea for TO's or whoever is in charge to review decklists *before* the tournament actually starts, to make sure everyone's deck is legal. We all had to submit decklists, so this should be fairly easy to accomplish. The lists don't have to be studied in detail, just skimmed to make sure no illegal cards are in the deck.

 

Depending on the size of the event, this can be prohibitive, especially if people come running in 5 minutes before the event, don't have their decklist done at the time of registration (there are always a few people scribbling out decklists after they first walk to the registration table) or simply write down the wrong thing. As a policing tool, I tend to find decklists more trouble than they are worth.

The better, and more reliable, solution in my opinion is for the TO to announce the legal cardpool during registration and tell everyone to check their decks before the event starts - along with the "this is what happens if you are found with an illegal card" policy. It's especially a good idea when there have been changes to the banned list or a new retail release within 1 week of the event. 

We've done this sort of announcement at GenCon for 2008 and 2009. In both years, someone scrambled to make changes to their deck. And in both years, there was never a problem once the event began.

ktom said:

ASoIaFfan said:

Maybe to avoid such things it would be a good idea for TO's or whoever is in charge to review decklists *before* the tournament actually starts, to make sure everyone's deck is legal. We all had to submit decklists, so this should be fairly easy to accomplish. The lists don't have to be studied in detail, just skimmed to make sure no illegal cards are in the deck.

 

Depending on the size of the event, this can be prohibitive, especially if people come running in 5 minutes before the event, don't have their decklist done at the time of registration (there are always a few people scribbling out decklists after they first walk to the registration table) or simply write down the wrong thing. As a policing tool, I tend to find decklists more trouble than they are worth.

The better, and more reliable, solution in my opinion is for the TO to announce the legal cardpool during registration and tell everyone to check their decks before the event starts - along with the "this is what happens if you are found with an illegal card" policy. It's especially a good idea when there have been changes to the banned list or a new retail release within 1 week of the event. 

We've done this sort of announcement at GenCon for 2008 and 2009. In both years, someone scrambled to make changes to their deck. And in both years, there was never a problem once the event began.

What's particularly tough and, I think, makes it the incorrect decision to enforce the "available for purchase at least one week" rule is there's no mention of it in the 2010 official tournament rules that are posted in the Support area for AGoT LCG.  And I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any announcement on the FFG site re the mega event.  In fact, the official tournament rules list sets that are not yet published under the "Authorized Cards" section, which arguably suggests that if you can get your hands on them, they are legal.  There's really no reason that I can think of why a new player would think he couldn't play with the latest chapter pack.



#10 ktom

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 05:10 AM

LetsGoRed said:

What's particularly tough and, I think, makes it the incorrect decision to enforce the "available for purchase at least one week" rule is there's no mention of it in the 2010 official tournament rules that are posted in the Support area for AGoT LCG.  And I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any announcement on the FFG site re the mega event.  In fact, the official tournament rules list sets that are not yet published under the "Authorized Cards" section, which arguably suggests that if you can get your hands on them, they are legal.  There's really no reason that I can think of why a new player would think he couldn't play with the latest chapter pack.

Exactly my point. It is a long-standing, general rule for FFG organized play that many people take for granted - and shouldn't. That's why it should be announced before the event (as you and I have both done for our respective Regionals, I note... ).



#11 King Blith

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 03:40 PM

cerebralcortex said:

 

I just talked to a friend who went to Minnesota to play in the Fantasy Flight Game week end. So we are new to Game of Thrones and he decides to play in the tournament after he played in the Warhammer tournament. In the warhammer tournament the new cards that came out last week were legal. So my friend just figured that the new GoT cards must be legal as well. So becau8se we has a very small card pool he puts them in not knowing they were no legal.

In his very first game he plays one of the illegal cards an the guy he is laying say6s it is not legal yet. So my friend explains to him that he is new and did not know, but the guy makes the huge deal of it. He calls over a judge and makes sure my friend gets disqualified and is very rude to my friend. My friend would have easily gave him the win because he was not there to win, but just to learn the game.

So now my friend has about the worst experience he could have had in this game. We were both looking forward to going to Gencon to play GoT, but know I just don’t know.

 

 

 

I am sorry for making a big deal with it but i was not sure if the card had just come out i just want to make it it did and i ask jj which was not a judge we did play out the game and if i remeber right it had no bearing on me winning the game and i did give him some pointers on his deck too

 

i will say i sorry adn i think took it a little out of contrat but it i mostlike went a little to far

brad



#12 King Blith

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 03:49 PM

LetsGoRed said:

ktom said:

 

ASoIaFfan said:

Maybe to avoid such things it would be a good idea for TO's or whoever is in charge to review decklists *before* the tournament actually starts, to make sure everyone's deck is legal. We all had to submit decklists, so this should be fairly easy to accomplish. The lists don't have to be studied in detail, just skimmed to make sure no illegal cards are in the deck.

 

Depending on the size of the event, this can be prohibitive, especially if people come running in 5 minutes before the event, don't have their decklist done at the time of registration (there are always a few people scribbling out decklists after they first walk to the registration table) or simply write down the wrong thing. As a policing tool, I tend to find decklists more trouble than they are worth.

The better, and more reliable, solution in my opinion is for the TO to announce the legal cardpool during registration and tell everyone to check their decks before the event starts - along with the "this is what happens if you are found with an illegal card" policy. It's especially a good idea when there have been changes to the banned list or a new retail release within 1 week of the event. 

We've done this sort of announcement at GenCon for 2008 and 2009. In both years, someone scrambled to make changes to their deck. And in both years, there was never a problem once the event began.

 

 

ktom said:

 

ASoIaFfan said:

Maybe to avoid such things it would be a good idea for TO's or whoever is in charge to review decklists *before* the tournament actually starts, to make sure everyone's deck is legal. We all had to submit decklists, so this should be fairly easy to accomplish. The lists don't have to be studied in detail, just skimmed to make sure no illegal cards are in the deck.

 

Depending on the size of the event, this can be prohibitive, especially if people come running in 5 minutes before the event, don't have their decklist done at the time of registration (there are always a few people scribbling out decklists after they first walk to the registration table) or simply write down the wrong thing. As a policing tool, I tend to find decklists more trouble than they are worth.

The better, and more reliable, solution in my opinion is for the TO to announce the legal cardpool during registration and tell everyone to check their decks before the event starts - along with the "this is what happens if you are found with an illegal card" policy. It's especially a good idea when there have been changes to the banned list or a new retail release within 1 week of the event. 

We've done this sort of announcement at GenCon for 2008 and 2009. In both years, someone scrambled to make changes to their deck. And in both years, there was never a problem once the event began.

 

 

What's particularly tough and, I think, makes it the incorrect decision to enforce the "available for purchase at least one week" rule is there's no mention of it in the 2010 official tournament rules that are posted in the Support area for AGoT LCG.  And I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any announcement on the FFG site re the mega event.  In fact, the official tournament rules list sets that are not yet published under the "Authorized Cards" section, which arguably suggests that if you can get your hands on them, they are legal.  There's really no reason that I can think of why a new player would think he couldn't play with the latest chapter pack.

 

 

well there only 2 reason i new it and did not use the new cp was joe told me it would nto be legal for the torny and i ask nate about it the  nght before

 



#13 Fflewddur Fflam

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 04:43 PM

 Well, the TO did state to everyone that the new pack was not legal before the tournament.  It was made pretty clear to me.  

I am terribly sorry that your friend had such an awful experience though.  As a thrones player, I can testify to how fervently I desire new players.  What originally got me interested in the game was the great community of players who were eager to help me learn the game and allowed me to make mistakes.  I loved not only the well designed game, but also all of the players who soon became good friends of mine.



#14 thorondor

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 11:18 PM

Fflewddur Fflam said:

 Well, the TO did state to everyone that the new pack was not legal before the tournament.  It was made pretty clear to me.  

 

the point is: WHEN did the TO state it to everyone. just before the tourney? a day before? thats definately too late.

it has to be clear ewll in advance. easy solution: make it part of the Toruney Rules!



#15 Venryk

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 12:08 PM

The problem is a rule announced right before a tourney will create bad experiences. People generally do not travel with their entire collection so they can modifiy their deck because their cards are not legal. Not publishing it in the tourney rules and then enforcing it at a tournament is a huge mistake. If it is a rule publish it in the tourney rules.  And honestly it is a pretty silly rule any way IMO. People want to playwith their cards when they get them not a week later.



#16 Lars

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 12:12 PM

Venryk said:

People want to playwith their cards when they get them not a week later.

What about those that are unable to buy them in the week from release to the tourney?

 

its those people the rule is designed for, so that they are not disadvantaged....its not just an arbitrary time limit.



#17 Venryk

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 12:26 PM

Lars said:

Venryk said:

 

People want to playwith their cards when they get them not a week later.

 

 

What about those that are unable to buy them in the week from release to the tourney?

 

its those people the rule is designed for, so that they are not disadvantaged....its not just an arbitrary time limit.

Why are the unable to buy them? I show up to the store and buy them. What if they can't get it within two weeks maybe it should be two weeks. Hey I only buy online and it is 3 weeks shipping so the rule should be three. Yes it is arbitrary unless their is some science behind choosing a week (and there is no science behind it just an unpublished decision made). Keep in mind some people will not be able to have access for up to a month after release.

The problem is it is an unpublished rule for a different point in the game. Don't hide behind something announced years ago so only old hats know about it. I know about it because I played back then but most people do not. Also realise there is a slightly different target for players now. Do they really want to drive players away with negative experiences like this. The fact is with out it published it can only cause negative experiences. I rule only a few know about cannot be good for the game. If you want to have a delay between legality then it cannot be too much effort to place those few sentences in the tourney rules.



#18 King Blith

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 06:06 PM

like i said i ask nate the night before just to make sure the last pack was nto legal because there were card i wanted out of there he said no so i agree that they should put it in the touny rules



#19 JerusalemJones

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 11:02 AM

Venryk does make a very good point. There is no rule in the official Tournament Rules document about the cards having to be available for at least one week before the event for them to be legal for the tournament. Yes, those of us who have been around for years will remember it as a hold over from the old rules, but at present (and at the time of the LCG Regionals) it was not in the document. And no matter how much we talk about it being an official policy, the new players had no way of knowing about it (and perhaps should not have been made into an issue).



#20 Ephraim

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 05:54 AM

This is the main reason I am not highly motivated to attend these kinds of tournaments, and unfortunately, the higher level the event (and better prize support) the worse it gets.  All it took is one immature idiot, and he succeeded in making 2+ people possibly never attend again.  I added the "+" because people are going to read this thread, and decide that kind of thing is not for them.  If the actions of a few individuals discourages people from playing, FFG isnt going to continue to hold these events.






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