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#1 Julia

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 01:16 PM

Hi everybody,
I have a little doubt on how to use the Double back power in this situation: Dracula's Trail is full. A new round begins, and Dracula would like to use his Double back power. Rules says Dracula takes a card from his Trail / Catacombs and places it upon the Double back card. And that's ok. The question: can Dracula use this power even on the sixth card (the farthest on the right)? As far as I've understand the rules, he firstly decides where to go, takes the card and puts it into play, moving the other cards on the trail from left to right. So I'd say he takes the sixth card, moves the other and places the former sixth as the new first, but I'm not quite sure
Thx!


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#2 Dam

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 07:49 PM

As long as he can reach the 6th location from his current one, I can't recall anything preventing Double Back to there.


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#3 Julia

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:58 PM

Dam, sorry, I'm afraid I do not understand your post (bad english of mine? bad wording in my first post? don't know)...

My question was: 6 cards on the trail. The sixth is Bordeaux (for example), the first one is Madrid. Dracula wants to use his Doubel back power to return to Bordeaux. The correct sequence is:

a) choosing the place to return to; so, take the Bordeaux card from the trail, move the remaining cards one spot to the right, play the card Double back together with the Bordeaux card

or

b) the cards on the trail move first, so everything shifts one spot on the right, Bordeaux goes out from the trail (cannot go to the catacombs because they are full) and returns to the location deck, so Dracula can't use his power (and never return to Bordeaux because is too distant from Madrid)?


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#4 Dam

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 12:41 AM

Julia said:

Dam, sorry, I'm afraid I do not understand your post (bad english of mine? bad wording in my first post? don't know)...

My question was: 6 cards on the trail. The sixth is Bordeaux (for example), the first one is Madrid. Dracula wants to use his Doubel back power to return to Bordeaux. The correct sequence is:

a) choosing the place to return to; so, take the Bordeaux card from the trail, move the remaining cards one spot to the right, play the card Double back together with the Bordeaux card

or

b) the cards on the trail move first, so everything shifts one spot on the right, Bordeaux goes out from the trail (cannot go to the catacombs because they are full) and returns to the location deck, so Dracula can't use his power (and never return to Bordeaux because is too distant from Madrid)?

I believe it would be A, except, like you say, he can't Double Back to Bordeaux from Madrid. DB is still a normal move, not a teleport.

"Note that if Dracula crosses over a Location
from his Trail (rather than his Catacombs), his
Trail does not grow any longer this turn, and
no card “drops off ” this turn." (p. 21)

That's my reading of things. Been a while since I've invested time to brush up on my FoD rules though, pretty much given up on it and Chaos in the Old World, both suffer from a lack of conflict (as in, not enough for my taste).


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#5 Steve-O

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 01:17 AM

Julia said:

a) choosing the place to return to; so, take the Bordeaux card from the trail, move the remaining cards one spot to the right, play the card Double back together with the Bordeaux card

or

b) the cards on the trail move first, so everything shifts one spot on the right, Bordeaux goes out from the trail (cannot go to the catacombs because they are full) and returns to the location deck, so Dracula can't use his power (and never return to Bordeaux because is too distant from Madrid)?

Dracula can only move to adjacent cities, barring other cards that allow him to move more.  Wherever Dracula is currently standing, he must be able to move to the location in his trail that he's trying to use DB on in a single move.  The way DB works is as you describe in option (A), so you CAN theoretically use Double Back on the sixth card in the trail.  However, Bordeaux is not adjacent to Madrid, so Dracula couldn't make that particular move.

Double Back allows Dracula to criss-cross his previous trail and return to a city that hasn't come back to his deck yet - something he normally can't do because there's only one of each city in his deck.  It doesn't mean he gets to ignore the normal movement rules.



#6 Julia

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 03:50 AM

so, if I understand correctly, the Double back power does not work with ANY of the cards on the trail, but just to a card adjacent his actual location? I've always played it - wrong, evidently - like you can return to any of the location of your trail, even if more distant that just 1 movement.

And thanks, Steve and Dam, for enlighting me on my question :-)


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#7 Steve-O

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 01:59 AM

Julia said:

so, if I understand correctly, the Double back power does not work with ANY of the cards on the trail, but just to a card adjacent his actual location? I've always played it - wrong, evidently - like you can return to any of the location of your trail, even if more distant that just 1 movement.

It works on any location which is both in your trail and adjacent to the location Dracula currently occupies.  That may be what you meant, but I'm not sure.



#8 Julia

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 02:24 AM

Steve-O said:

It works on any location which is both in your trail and adjacent to the location Dracula currently occupies.  That may be what you meant, but I'm not sure.

Yup, I meant that. Really, thanks a lot for correcting me ::smile::


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#9 Rasiel

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 02:19 AM

I have a question about DB too, can dracula use double back and use it on hide card ? In any means: eg return hide card and play with double back OR return location card along with hide and play hide with DB ?



#10 Julia

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 01:28 AM

Rasiel said:

I have a question about DB too, can dracula use double back and use it on hide card ? In any means: eg return hide card and play with double back OR return location card along with hide and play hide with DB ?

This was clarified in the FAQs:

Q: How is the Hide card handled if Dracula uses Double Back to move to the same location in which he used Hide?
A: The location card is moved up on the Trail and played with Double Back as usual. The Hide card is revealed and discarded from Dracula’s Trail, and the cards older than Hide in Dracula’s Trail are shifted to fill in the empty space. Effectively, Dracula must announce to the Hunters that he is doubling back to a location in which he previously hid.


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#11 Rasiel

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:34 AM

Well, its not what i asked, i read FAQ. If you think it is thus not possible to play Hide card with Double Back you should say "no, you cant, because ... dont know".

I think it is still tracing your previous path,when you play DB on hide (only its from one city to the same city ...

But maybe when you DB to hide card you can only target locations with a city on them and have to play that specific city ... this would be the correct answer. Question in FAQ is not my question on this.

 

Example to be clear I have 3 cards on stack : City A, hide, City B.

a) Now i play DB on hide, and play hide so it will now be : City B, City A, hide

b) I play double back on City A, take hide card as well, and play hide so it would be: City B, hide

Can i play a or b ? Situation in FAQ is not this you see. I dont want to play City A card what is FAQ question about.



#12 Julia

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:22 PM

Rasiel said:

Well, its not what i asked, i read FAQ. If you think it is thus not possible to play Hide card with Double Back you should say "no, you cant, because ... dont know".

I think it is still tracing your previous path,when you play DB on hide (only its from one city to the same city ...

But maybe when you DB to hide card you can only target locations with a city on them and have to play that specific city ... this would be the correct answer. Question in FAQ is not my question on this.

Example to be clear I have 3 cards on stack : City A, hide, City B.

a) Now i play DB on hide, and play hide so it will now be : City B, City A, hide

b) I play double back on City A, take hide card as well, and play hide so it would be: City B, hide

Can i play a or b ? Situation in FAQ is not this you see. I dont want to play City A card what is FAQ question about.

Ok, sorry, I didn't get at first what you asked. My mistake. I'm not sure on this issue, but I can tell you the way I'd play it. Basically, the Double back power allows you to return on a location still on your trail, as long as you do a "legal" movement. Since Hide is not a location, I'd say you may not double back the Hide card, but the city where you were hiding.
Hope this could have some sense!


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#13 Rasiel

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 06:19 PM

Well if he plays hide it is still legal movement into a city that he previously visit ... it is his last location but he was there already ...

I apply on meaning of this card, not to limit this card only to make it strictly different from Hide card (you can cross your trail but zou cant return to last visited city). For me, its the same.

I ask this because taking hide card from trail with DB is mostly bad idea when hunters will know he hid somewhere and now he returns to the same city.

Another question: I think you can play only one power card per turn ? you cant play wolf form and double back in one move ?

thanks for reply anyway ;)



#14 Julia

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 11:49 PM

:-) you're welcome.

And yes, only one power card per turn.

As far as the Hide card is concerned, I know what you mean. And you're right about being Hide a legal movement; my doubts, regarding the possibility of double backing a Hide card, are related to the wording in the power's description: Double back refers only to Locations, while Hide, even if allowing you to remain in a Location, it's not a Location, but a power itself. So I'd say you may not double back a power, and in the same way, I'd say you may not double back a Feed or a Dark call card (for all these cards, if you look at the description in the rulebook, it's said "played instead of a location", which to me means they can't be double backed)


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#15 Steve-O

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 01:40 AM

Julia said:

As far as the Hide card is concerned, I know what you mean. And you're right about being Hide a legal movement; my doubts, regarding the possibility of double backing a Hide card, are related to the wording in the power's description: Double back refers only to Locations, while Hide, even if allowing you to remain in a Location, it's not a Location, but a power itself. So I'd say you may not double back a power, and in the same way, I'd say you may not double back a Feed or a Dark call card (for all these cards, if you look at the description in the rulebook, it's said "played instead of a location", which to me means they can't be double backed)

I agree, you can't Double Back to a power card (not even Hide.)  You have to pick an actual location card (which may of course be the same location in which you previously hid, if that location is a legal target.)  The important part of the FAQ answer quoted above is that the Hide card itself should be revealed and discarded if you choose this location.  If you didn't get rid of the hide card, then examining the trail later would make it seem that you had hidden in the location before the one you really hid in.  This would, among other things, effectively shift the position of any encounter token you might have played on Hide.  It may also confuse the Dracula player's memory of what he was doing, and may generate accusations of cheating depending on the situation.

Other power cards, like Feed don't really have this problem since they aren't concretely tied to any location card.






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