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Zoog Burrow (Dreamlands F56): what does it do when resourced?


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#1 jhaelen

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:40 AM

Well, I noticed that Zoog Burrow has a Zoog resource icon but its text doesn't mention any effect related to draining the domain it's attached to.

Since the FAQ says that "A card attached to a domain as a resource does not have a text box, unless the card has a Zoog icon", it's clear that the card counts as a Dreamlands location even if it's attached as a resource.

But does it also mean that you can trigger its Response while attached as a resource? It seems odd that you can exhaust a resource...



#2 KallistiBRC

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 10:33 AM

Zoog cards have a text box, but are still not considered in play while attached to resources.  This allows you to use their text boxes as actions but little else.  It is a similar situation to cards in the discard pile having something like "Action: Pay 1 to return this card to your hand" or a card in your hand having "Pay X to pinch Cthulhu".  They're not in play, but they have triggerable effects.

Soooo you wouldn't be able to exhaust Zoog Burrow since a card needs to be in play in order to exhaust.

 



#3 jhaelen

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 11:35 PM

KallistiBRC said:

Soooo you wouldn't be able to exhaust Zoog Burrow since a card needs to be in play in order to exhaust.

Thanks for your answer!

Similar to the question about sacrificing resource cards, I wonder if it is really required for a card to be 'in play' in order to be exhausted or if it is sufficient for it to be under your control. Could you quote a section defining that cards cannot be exhausted if they are not in play?



#4 Deek

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 05:09 AM

Are domains considered to be out of play? Hmm.

I had thought the deck, the discard and my hand were the official out of play areas, as referenced on page 14 of the core set rules under "Control and Ownership," last paragraph.

I've been assuming that domains were in play, but all attached cards "lose all other identification and game function" (page 14, "Adding a Domain") beyond their resource icon, with the exception of Zoog cards. Hmm. Maybe that's the key. Though Zoog cards retain their text box while attached (and only their text box, according to the FAQ), maybe their ability to exhaust is removed as part of the lost "game functions" ...? Even if domains are in play, the attached Zoog card would still be unable to exhaust, as the ability to attain that game state is sacrificed when it becomes a resource.



#5 KallistiBRC

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 07:34 AM

Yeah, resources are technically 'in play' but only in as much as they are cards attached to domains.  They lose everything about themselves aside from the resource icon.  They're nameless, stateless, typeless, textless, etc.  (Zoog cards being the exception that they are not textless).

Still, since they are not characters, support cards, or events while attached to domains, and have no state, they cannot exhaust.  And, barring Zoog cards, you cannot activate their responses, actions, passive effects, etc.  Nor can they be the target of sacrifice effects that do not specifically target resources.  

For example, if you had Cthulhu in play, you could not meet his "sacrifice a character" forced response by sacrificing a character card from your domain.



#6 Deek

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 07:42 AM

Exactly my interpretation, though I consider "resource" to be a state in and of itself, similar to how neutral is not faction-less, moreso a specific card type that exists alongside cards w/ faction affiliations, one that must be considered on equal terms when dealing with faction-related matters (like Professor Lake and Literature Professor).

Domains are in play, but are non-cards. Resources are in play, but are basically blank with the exception of the resource icon. So long as they remain attached to a domain, said cards exist in a permanent game state, that of a resource. Zoog cards are no different, with the exception of their text box, which they retain. Zoog Burrow cannot be exhausted, however, as the resource state supersedes all other states; ready, exhausted, insane, etc. Similar to how the insane state can never be changed to readied nor exhausted.

Honestly though, I have nothing to base this on other than a few lines of rules text and a reasonable string of logic. Take it with a grain of salt.



#7 KallistiBRC

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 07:48 AM

Yay for no edit!  Oh well, ignore my last post.

One note:  The part you quoted about page 14 of the rulebook is about adding domains, not resources to domains.  There is a  *big* difference there.  The following section is about resources themselves and what they retain and comes from the FAQ.  I've bolded some important parts:

(v1.0) Text Box
A card’s text box consists of subtypes and game text relevant to gameplay, including keywords such as Willpower and Fast. A card’s cost, title, descriptors, faction symbol, skill, printed card type (i.e., character, support), collector information, and favor text are not considered to be part of the text box. A card attached to a domain as a resource does not have a text box, unless the card has a Zoog resource symbol

 

Soooo what this means is that since cards attached to domains would still have the title and card type, if they were considered "in play" then they would be considered valid for all sorts of targeting requirements.  You could have Cthulhu eat resources since they'd be characters in play.  The stories that resolve and remove "all characters with printed cost less than 3 (or greater than 2)" would remove domains.  Etc etc.

It would be such a huge game altering effect, that they can't possibly considered as in play.  



#8 Deek

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 08:00 AM

Ha! I edited like stink while you were posting. This could get confusing.

Good point regarding my page 14 quote. I even went so far as to list the heading as "Adding a Domain" and still I managed to drop the ball on that.

The FAQ mentions both the discard and resources as separate zones of play that can be freely viewed by either player in the game, but doesn't indicate whether the domains and their attached resources are considered in or out of play. My other page 14 quote still stands, which indirectly indicates that only the discard, the deck and the hand are officially considered out of play zones.

I still think that, once a card is turned upside down and attached to a domain, it enters resource state, similar to the insane state (but even MORE blank, barring Zoog exception). Again, I have nothing to base this on, but it makes more sense to me when given the choice between out of play domains, and resources that otherwise cannot be targeted or exhausted based on their title, type, etc. Not that out of play domains/resources is a flawed notion, it makes perfect sense in many ways.

EDIT: Gotta be honest, both interpretations seem valid. Both are logical and neither can be directly supported by official rules text. WAH!



#9 KallistiBRC

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:58 AM

Deek said:

Ha! I edited like stink while you were posting. This could get confusing.

Good point regarding my page 14 quote. I even went so far as to list the heading as "Adding a Domain" and still I managed to the ball on that.

The FAQ mentions both the discard and resources as separate zones of play that can be freely viewed by either player in the game, but doesn't indicate whether the domains and their attached resources are considered in or out of play. My other page 14 quote still stands, which indirectly indicates that only the discard, the deck and the hand are officially considered out of play zones.

I still think that, once a card is turned upside down and attached to a domain, it enters resource state, similar to the insane state (but even MORE blank, barring Zoog exception). Again, I have nothing to base this on, but it makes more sense to me when given the choice between out of play domains, and resources that otherwise cannot be targeted or exhausted based on their title, type, etc. Not that out of play domains/resources is a flawed notion, it makes perfect sense in many ways.

EDIT: Gotta be honest, both interpretations seem valid. Both are logical and neither can be directly supported by official rules text. WAH!

Unfortunately, I disagree with the creation of a "resource state".  Theres definitely nothing in the game rules/faq to indicate that such a state exists.   Also though, if there were, it would be LESS blank, not more blank.  Since insane cards keep their target and are considered 0 cost, 0 skill characters with no text box, traits, or faction.  Cards attached as resources maintain their title, type (character/support/event etc), printed cost, and faction.

The reason that they keep so much more than insane characters is so that other cards can *specifically* reference cards attached to domains and filter out which ones.  Torch the joint: "Destory a non agency location or resource", some Zog card "Choose a character card attached to a domain, put it in play.  If it is still in play at the end of the phase reattach it to a domain of your choice" etc.   

Actually.... now that I think of that Zog card a bit more, the wording (which i must admit i was quoting from memory and could have wrong) seems to imply that the card on the domain is not already in play since you have to put it in play.

Also, I think the most compelling argument about whether or not these cards are in play is what it would mean for the entire game if they were.  Character resource cards would all targets for things like Single Glimpse, polar effects, Small Price To Pay, etc.  I.e. you could basically eliminate the other person's resources with a VAST amount of effects. 

 



#10 Deek

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 11:50 AM

Makes sense. I suppose I should reconsider my stance on resources and how they operate. Admittedly, I'm still pretty new to this, but I've always subscribed to the notion that to become better at something, you gotta jump in the pool with the best. If I'm ever gonna learn the niggling, grim details of CoC, I'm happy to be wrong more often than I'm right in a public forum!

That said (as I dig myself a little deeper), I'm still not certain that attached resources are less blank than insane characters, with the exception of the Zoog cards. A non-agency resource is determined by the resource icons, which is all one requires to satisfy that particular targetting requirement (as cards attached to domains still retain their icons and, by extension, their faction or lack thereof in the case of neutral resources), and the Zoog cards that allow one to detach and put into play a character affects the specific Zoog card being played, which is referenced as said Zoog card "attached as a resource," if I recall correctly ... which I suppose would bypass the whole "targeting a card by name, though the card currently lacks a name" issue.

I'm sure there are other card effects that better support your position. I'm still working my way through the deckbuilder with a fine tooth comb. There are many cards I've yet to examine and/or play. I'm not familiar enough with all 400+ cards to know whether resource cards require their name, faction, printed cost, etc. in order to satisfy specific targeting requirements ... which, I suppose, is pretty key to my hypothesis. I've obviously gotten ahead of myself, forming notions with incomplete information. If resource cards do in fact retain all their info with the exception of their text box, then resources would have to be out of play (as you say, otherwise the implications are mind boggling). If resources retain only their resource icon, which the exception of Zoogs retaining their text boxes while attached, than I suppose domains and resources could safely be considered in play.

I think the Zoog Burrow references a Zoog card that has just been drawn (also recalling from memory), though I get the distinct impression that the Burrow itself needs to be in play in order to exhaust it in order to attach the drawn Zoog to a domain.



#11 Deek

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 06:39 PM

I realize that was extremely tl;dr. Abridged version! (with optional footnotes!)

I'm hoping someone can provide at least one of the following:

  • Official rules detailing what card text a resource loses, besides it's text box. Do attached resources retain anything other than their resource icon (name, card type, printed cost, etc.), barring the obvious exception of Zoog cards? Or are they considered blank, save the resource icon?
  • Official rules that state whether domains are considered an "in play" or "out of play" zone.
  • Or, a card that not targets resources, but also references card specific details such as icons, printed cost, total skill, etc. as part of the targeting requirement. For instance, "Choose and destroy a character attached as a resource" or something similar; anything to infer that resources retain something beyond their resource icon.*

* Consider the last bullet on the list. Torch the Joint is almost a good example, save that it appears to target non-Agency resource icons, obviously something a resource would retain even if the rest of the card were blank. The Zoog cards are also a hard sell in this regard as each Zoog specifically targets itself when "attached as a resource," possibly indicating a Golden Rule exception.

I'm still new, there are plenty of cards I haven't examined. I can only assume that cards exist to lend weight to KallistiBRC's theory. Hopefully someone can provide a quote and/or some card text that'll put the issue to bed.

 



#12 Dadajef

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:10 PM

The zoog icons for the zoog Burrow is for me a print error. It can't work.

1) The zoog rule says the ability of the zoog card may be triggered whenever the attached domain is drained.

2) The zoog ability is a Response so It can trigger because you drain a domain. (you drain the domain to be able to play the Response : Drain > Response)

3) The Zoog Burrow can be triggered in Response to a draw (not to a drain domain). So if you have Zoog burrow in ressource and drain the domain, you are not drawing a card (so the Respone can't be trigger). The zoog Burrow is a "normal" support card, you must have it into play in your zone area, to trigger it's effects when you draw a zoog card. When you place it in resource it's just a "normal" neutral resource.

 

 

 



#13 Dadajef

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:53 PM

About resources:

Sure, it could be great to have clear precision about resource. To be logical, resources are used to be played like that :

A resource card is a type or card (like you have Character, support, event, story, conspiracy cards, all your card are potential resource card). You attach a card from your hand as a resource (p.8), it cannot be used for anything else. This card is considered to be a resource (point 10, p.5).

A Resource must be in an out of play state (Imagine you have a unique card in resource, you will never play another copy of this unique card, if resource was "in play" and keep its title, see rule of unique p.6 or imagine Sledge dogs placed in resource that gives bonus to your dog in play !).


Faq (Working effect) : Cards in play do not interact with cards that are out of play unless they specifically refer to an out of play state they will interact with.
So you can have cards that interact with resources if it is writing on the card (Servant says you to sacrifice a resource, Torch a joint destroys a non agency one, Twilight gate search a character...). It means also a resource card keep its faction value (the rule of the resource match or the example of torch a joint) and its original type (twilight gate, you must choose a character, not another type of card).

 



#14 Deek

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 04:39 AM

Dadajef said:

About resources:

 

Sure, it could be great to have clear precision about resource. To be logical, resources are used to be played like that :

A resource card is a type or card (like you have Character, support, event, story, conspiracy cards, all your card are potential resource card). You attach a card from your hand as a resource (p.8), it cannot be used for anything else. This card is considered to be a resource (point 10, p.5).

A Resource must be in an out of play state (Imagine you have a unique card in resource, you will never play another copy of this unique card, if resource was "in play" and keep its title, see rule of unique p.6 or imagine Sledge dogs placed in resource that gives bonus to your dog in play !).

Faq (Working effect) : Cards in play do not interact with cards that are out of play unless they specifically refer to an out of play state they will interact with.
So you can have cards that interact with resources if it is writing on the card (Servant says you to sacrifice a resource, Torch a joint destroys a non agency one, Twilight gate search a character...). It means also a resource card keep its faction value (the rule of the resource match or the example of torch a joint) and its original type (twilight gate, you must choose a character, not another type of card).

 

Woot! That's exactly what I was looking for, Dadajef. Specifically the Twilight Gate text.

Even if resources were blank save for their resource icon (and therefore considered in play), Servant from Out of Time and Torch the Joint could still technically function. Torch the Joint could easily be targeting resource icons as opposed to faction affiliations, as faction symbols and resource icons are identical and share implied affiliation. Servant from Out of Time requires no specific card text and could easily be targeting a blank resource. At no point have I theorized that resources "in play" retain anything other than their resource icon. To assume otherwise would invite swirling madness.

Twilight Gate is a different animal as it requires one to target a "non-Ancient One character attached as a resource," meaning resources, at the very least, retain their card type text. This alone is proof enough that resources do not and cannot exist "in play", that domains and their attached resources are almost certainly "out of play" zones. I realize this leads to additional questions (see another of jhaelen's threads), like, do we still control resources even though they are out of play? If not, how do we pay for Servant from Out of Time by sacrificing a resource we do not technically control (page 14, core rules, "A player can only sacrifice cards that he controls ...")? 50cc's of Golden Rule! STAT!

I also have to assume that KallistiBRC is correct in that cards cannot be exhausted in an out of play zone. That only makes sense. Exhausted, readied, insane; they're all game states that apply to cards in play. You can't exhaust a card in your deck, for instance. Also, Dadajef could easily be correct in that the Zoog resource icon on Burrow is a misprint. Either way, FFG needs to make something official.

So that's that! I have a card I can point to should this topic rear it's head in future. The magic bullet. Thanks to KallistiBRC, Dadajef and of course jhaelen for posing the question.

However ... 

It does raise an interesting, somewhat related point (assuming I understand the mechanics): How can one target a "non-Ancient One character attached as a resource" if resources have no text box, and therefore no subtypes? If one wished to cripple Twilight Gate, a case could be made that only Zoog characters may be put into play. OR, more devious, one could say that Cthulhu (for example) attached as a resource no longer counts as an Ancient One. No text box, no subtype. Big Green back in action for a single phase, for a mere payment of 2? Honestly, the intention of the card is quite clear. Now I'm just being an ass for the sake of discussion ('cause yeah, this thread needs to be longer).



#15 KallistiBRC

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 05:51 AM

 Check the text of what I posted above about what counts as a Text Box.  Specifically:  "title, descriptors, printed card type" are not part of the text box.  

Ancient One is a descriptor, so no luck there.  :)

 

 



#16 Deek

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:06 AM

KallistiBRC said:

Check the text of what I posted above about what counts as a Text Box.  Specifically:  "title, descriptors, printed card type" are not part of the text box.  

 

Ancient One is a descriptor, so no luck there.  :)

Hrm. According to page 5 of the core rules, a "descriptor" is text that "contains thematic information about a card and is an extension of the card's title."

What I'm referring to is a "subtype," which appears to be part of the text box.

I think.

My brains hurts. I need a nap.



#17 jhaelen

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:09 AM

Dadajef said:

 

The zoog icons for the zoog Burrow is for me a print error. It can't work.

1) The zoog rule says the ability of the zoog card may be triggered whenever the attached domain is drained.

2) The zoog ability is a Response so It can trigger because you drain a domain. (you drain the domain to be able to play the Response : Drain > Response)

3) The Zoog Burrow can be triggered in Response to a draw (not to a drain domain). So if you have Zoog burrow in ressource and drain the domain, you are not drawing a card (so the Respone can't be trigger). The zoog Burrow is a "normal" support card, you must have it into play in your zone area, to trigger it's effects when you draw a zoog card. When you place it in resource it's just a "normal" neutral resource.

 

I agree at least partially.

 

My initial thought was, too, that the Zoog icon was a misprint. Supporting evidence is in the Zoog rule itself:

"The Zoog are a new addition to the Call of Cthulhu LCG, and these characters bring with them a new resource icon."

Now, the 'Zoog Burrow' is definitely not a character.

What gave me pause, though, was the text that was added to the FAQ. Since it mentions that Zoog cards do not lose their text box, I could suddenly think of a potential benefit if you used the 'Zoog Burrow' as a resource rather than putting it into play: It still counts as a 'Dreamlands' location!

This can be useful for decks that don't otherwise use Zoog cards at all, because several cards only work, if you control more 'Dreamlands' locations than your opponent. It's a sneaky way to give you a numeric advantage since you don't have to pay for them _and_ they become very difficult fo an opponent to destroy.

So I could imagine, that it is actually a dual use card: You either put it into play, because you hope to trigger its response when drawing additional Zoog cards, or you simply resource because you intend to play cards that require you to control a larger number of 'Dreamlands' locations than your opponent.

There is one other oddity: 'Zoog Burrow' does not have the 'Zoog' subtype. That is probably because it's not a character. Though it makes me wonder:

What makes a 'Zoog card' a 'Zoog card'? Is it the Zoog resource icon or is it the subtype?

Consider the 'Cats of Ulthar' (Dreamlands F116):

"Action: Pay 1 to destroy 1 Zoog card in play."

If the resource icon is the defining characteristic the Cats can also be used to destroy a 'Zoog Burrow' that is in play. If it is the subtype, 'Zoog Burrow' cannot be targeted by the Cats, but they could target cards that have been temporarily granted the 'Zoog' subtype (e.g. using 'False Papers' (Summons of the Deep F106)).



#18 jhaelen

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:19 AM

KallistiBRC said:

 

 Ancient One is a descriptor, so no luck there.  :)

 

That's definitely incorrect. As Deek mentioned, 'Ancient One' is a subtype, as is 'Zoog', or 'Dreamlands'.

 

Here's the quote from the FAQ:

"A card's text box consists of subtypes and game text relevant to gameplay, including keywords such as Willpower and Fast."



#19 TheProfessor

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 07:03 AM

 Umm.... looking the FAQ (1.1), on page 12 we get the following (I added the emphasis):

(v1.0) Resources and Discard Pile

These zones of play are considered to be public information and can be viewed freely by either player during the course of the game.

 

So apparently Resources are a zone of play. I would imagine that cards in a zone of play are not out of play.



#20 TheProfessor

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 07:09 AM

 Oh yeah, and in the FAQ, they clarified Spawn of Madness to read "refresh all domains in play."  So domains are clearly "in play", so perhaps the resources are as well?






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