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Horrid Dreams (Dreamlands F84): What can/must be sacrificed?


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#1 jhaelen

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:31 AM

Horrid Dreams:

Action: "Discard the top card of an opponent's deck. Then that player must choose and sacrifice a card from the same faction, if able."

First the (hopefully) easier question:

If the discarded card is a neutral card, it doesn't have a faction. I.e. no card must be sacrificed, correct?

Second question:

I know that insane characters could not be chosen to be sacrificed, since they do not have a faction. But what about resources? Could I choose a resouce to be sacrificed? The Servant from Out of Time seems to indicate that resources can indeed be sacrificed. But do they still have a faction? It seems the resouce symbol is separate from the faction symbol.



#2 KallistiBRC

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 10:30 AM

The first part I think you have correct.

The second part, cards are not considered "In Play" while they are attached to domains so they cannot be sacrificed.



#3 jhaelen

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 11:31 PM

KallistiBRC said:

The second part, cards are not considered "In Play" while they are attached to domains so they cannot be sacrificed.

I'm not so sure about this. The rules don't require a card to be in play in order to be sacrificed. The only requirement seems to be that you _control_ the card. And resource cards _are_ under your control.

If you were right, the 'Servant Out Of Time' could never enter play since it requires you to sacrifice a resource.



#4 KallistiBRC

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 07:59 AM

Quoting some parts of my post in the Zoog Burrow discussion:

(v1.0) Text Box
A card’s text box consists of subtypes and game text relevant to gameplay, including keywords such as Willpower and Fast. A card’s cost, title, descriptors, faction symbol, skill, printed card type (i.e., character, support), collector information, and favor text are not considered to be part of the text box. A card attached to a domain as a resource does not have a text box, unless the card has a Zoog resource symbol

 

Soooo what this means is that since cards attached to domains would still have the title and card type, if they were considered "in play" then they would be considered valid for all sorts of targeting requirements. You could have Cthulhu eat resources since they'd be characters in play. The stories that resolve and remove "all characters with printed cost less than 3 (or greater than 2)" would remove domains. Etc etc.

It would be such a huge game altering effect, that they can't possibly considered as in play.

There is this part of the rulebook page 8: "A resource is no longer a part of a player’s hand and cannot be used for anything else."  

To address the part of Control. Here is the relevent section on Control from the rulebook: "When a card comes into play, it does so under the control of its owner, unless otherwise specifed by the efect bringing the card into play." I'm pretty sure that means you only control cards that are in play.

 

Now, as to how this effects things like Horrid Dreams and Servant Out of Time.  If it is accepted that the resource are not in play, then Horrid Dreams can't have a legal choice of a resource.  

Servant Out of Time.  I believe it falls under the clause of "The Golden Rule" of card having precedence over the rules.  It specifically says you sacrifice a resource for the effect.  Similar to having to discard a card from hand.  Your hand isn't considered "in play" in normal cases, but certain card effects do target it.  

 



#5 jhaelen

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 05:46 AM

KallistiBRC said:

Soooo what this means is that since cards attached to domains would still have the title and card type, if they were considered "in play" then they would be considered valid for all sorts of targeting requirements. You could have Cthulhu eat resources since they'd be characters in play. The stories that resolve and remove "all characters with printed cost less than 3 (or greater than 2)" would remove domains. Etc etc.

Well, I've never argued that resources are considered 'in play'. Consider 'The Cats of Ulthar' (Dreamlands F116):

"Action: Pay 1 to destroy 1 Zoog card in play."

I believe it specifically mentions 'in play', so you cannot use it to destroy Zoog cards that are used as a resource.

 

However, being 'in play' is not a requirement mentioned in the rule text explaining 'sacrifice':

"A player can only sacrifice cards that he controls, ..."

Now, I cannot point to any rule text defining what cards are considered to be 'under your control', but I strongly suspect that the resource cards are controlled by their respective players. Couldn't an opponent otherwise simply drain your domains to pay for his costs? (also see below!!!)

The Cthulhu card specifically mentions that you have to sacrifice a character. Resources are not characters, but they _are_ cards. And that's what 'Horrid Dreams' says: You have to sacrifice a _card_ with the same faction symbol. IIRC, there's no other card dealing with sacrifices that doesn't specifically mention character and/or support.

The wording for the 'Servant out of Time' is misleading if it's supposed to be an exception to the standard sacrifice rules. Consider 'Obsessive Insomniac' (Dreamlands F24):

"Action: Discard a resource from a domain you control to ready Obsessive Insomniac."

I probably wouldn't even have thought of being able to sacrifice a resource card, if the 'Servant out of Time' had also used the term 'Discard'. However, interestingly, 'Obsessive Insomniac' indicates that at least the domains are under a player's control. I feel that this is further evidence, that the resource cards are under a player's control, too.



#6 Deek

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 06:20 AM

The section you quoted was KallistiBRC's response to my half baked notion that domains might actually be "in play" zones. I've since been cured of that particular delusion.

As per the FAQ Gaining Control, "If [a card] leaves play as the result of a game or card effect, it is returned to its owner’s control, but still is placed out of play."

This seems to indicate that cards out of play are still under someone's control. As resources are out of play, they are still controlled by their owner. I don't think the game provides an opportunity to resource a card owned your opponent ...? Does it? That would be interesting. You'd attach a card I own to one of your resources. I'd control the resource, but you'd be the one draining it. I could sacrifice said resource ... but whatever, that's a tangent.

We can sacrifice what we control, we can therefore sacrifice the resource cards we own when resources are specifically mentioned in the targeting requirements of an effect being played. The FAQ under Working Effects states, "Additionally, cards that are in play (or event cards that are played) do not interact with cards that are out of play unless they specifically refer to an out of play state they will interact with."

I'm not sure if I'm answering your question or not, but it seems to apply. Cards that we attach as resources are out of play and under our control, and we can sacrifice or otherwise target them assuming the targeting requirement of the effect mentions the out of play state (attached as a resource). For instance, you could not use Horrid Dreams or Cthulhu to sacrifice a card attached to an opponent's domain as a resource, simply because neither card specifically references resources (out of play) as a valid target, nor do you control the resources attached to your opponent's domains (assuming he owns them).



#7 TheProfessor

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 07:11 AM

 The in play question is still fuzzy to me.  In the FAQ we see two references that make me pause.

The entry on The Spawn of Madness says "refresh all domains in play." and there is this entry:

 

Resources and Discard Pile

These zones of play are considered to be public information...

It reads to me like Domains are in play (clearly from above), and if Resources are a "zone of play", would cards in a zone of play be "in play"?



#8 Deek

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 07:24 AM

The Spawn of Madness errata is definitely a spanner in the works, but I still feel the term "zones of play" refers to both in-play and out-of-play areas, considering the (v1.0) Working Effects section in combination with Resources and Discard Pile FAQ entry. I suppose the domains themselves could be in-play and the resources out-of-play, making them two separate zones of play. The domains are blank cards, for all intents and purposes. Even in-play, a domain wouldn't be a valid target unless a card specifically targets domains. They have no state, no text, no function. Heck, does a domain even retain it's status as a "card" for the purposes of game play (for triggering and targeting)?






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