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Changer of Ways--when played after another card


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#1 KingRotten

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 11:08 PM

I would like to discuss what people think in regards to which cards are actually canceled when Tzeentch's Changer of Ways is played second into a region.

Needless to say, I know that should it be played first to a region; any card to come afterward would not have any effects other than summoning cost and domination value.

However, when played after another card has been played, there is a bit of a question I think.  When the rules for playing a chaos card are, essentially, that they are resolved upon being played, and that changer of ways does not undo a card that has been triggered or resolved already.

I do have the FAQ and have seen the answers they give regarding this card on pages 2 and 4.  I figure what these answers imply is that Changer of Ways will, when played after another card has been played, only cancel those whose text effects have no trigger until a later phase than the current summoning phase.  I have listed all the cards and what I think the answer is.  Please do tell me what you think.  I wonder if I'm stretching the rules.

KHORNE--Battle Cry--Not canceled because placing corruption tokens is something that can actually be done during summoning phase(GUO upgrade and Perverse Infiltration).  This card therefore, is not triggered in a later phase this round.

Field of Carnage--Not canceled.  Summoning phase.

The Skull Throne--Canceled.  Calculating domination value is done in domination step of corruption phase.

Ritual Slaying--Canceled.  Cannot make a kill until battle phase.

The Blood God's Call--Not canceled.  Instant effect.

Reborn in Blood--Canceled.  Battle phase.

Blood Frenzy--Canceled.  Battle phase.

NURGLE--Rain of Pus--Not canceled.  This might sound strange, given that it is battle hits which are allocated against a follower's defense characteristic to kill it, but a follower has a defense characteristic just by being on the board.  Calculating a figure's defense characteristic is not actually a step in battle phase.  This card's effects are instantly applied to the Nurgle figure's already present and will benefit new figures to be added later that summoning phase.  It is essentially triggered or resolved upon being played.  Regardless, it will be COMPLETELY resolved by the end of that summoning phase.

The Final Rotting--Canceled.  End of battle phase.

Plague Touch--Not canceled.  For similar reasons to Rain of Pus.

All Things Decay--Not canceled.  Instant effect.

Plague Aura--Canceled.  Calculate domination value in domination step.

Influenza--Not canceled.  Regions always have a resistance value.  I don't think it would be dependent on someone having a domination score, actually.

A Great Foul Consumption--Canceled.  Triggered at end of corruption phase.

The Stench of Death--Canceled.  "If you dominate this region..."

TZEENTCH--The Meddling of Skaven--Not canceled.  Instant.

Dazzle--Canceled.  Corruption Phase.

Warp Shield--Not canceled.  FAQ

Drain Power--Not canceled.

Teleport--Not canceled.

The Persistence of Change--Canceled.  Kill in battle phase.

Temporal Stasis--Not canceled  Summoning phase.

Changer of Ways--Duh

SLAANESH--Dark Influence--Not canceled.  Instant.

Degenerate Royalty--Not canceled.  Instant.

Soporific Musk--Not canceled.  FAQ

Field of Ecstasy--Canceled.  Rolling battle dice is purely battle phase.  The card isn't actually altering the figures attack characteristic; they just roll no dice for it.

Perverse Infiltration--Not canceled.  Instant.

Insidious Lies--Canceled.  Calculate domination value in domination step.

Abyssal Pact--Canceled.  Domination value.

 

I do appreciate anyone's thoughts on this matter.

 

 

 



#2 Dam

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 12:20 AM

KingRotten said:

KHORNEBattle CryNot canceled because placing corruption tokens is something that can actually be done during summoning phase(GUO upgrade and Perverse Infiltration).  This card therefore, is not triggered in a later phase this round.

 

NURGLERain of PusNot canceled.  This might sound strange, given that it is battle hits which are allocated against a follower's defense characteristic to kill it, but a follower has a defense characteristic just by being on the board.  Calculating a figure's defense characteristic is not actually a step in battle phase.  This card's effects are instantly applied to the Nurgle figure's already present and will benefit new figures to be added later that summoning phase.  It is essentially triggered or resolved upon being played.  Regardless, it will be COMPLETELY resolved by the end of that summoning phase.

Plague TouchNot canceled.  For similar reasons to Rain of Pus.

InfluenzaNot canceled.  Regions always have a resistance value.  I don't think it would be dependent on someone having a domination score, actually.

TZEENTCH

Temporal StasisNot canceled  Summoning phase.

 

 

Left those I disagree with (going by memory of the card texts, CitOW is buried too deep in the closet to fish it out and check). All those would IMO be cancelled by CoW.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#3 FragMaster

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:07 PM

There is a very simple answer to this question:

When Changer of Ways is played, you instantly ignore the text of the other card. You treat it as a blank card that only has {or not} a magic symbol.

If the text is already resolved then the effect remains. The effect is not tied to the card. From then on the card is blank and you never look at it again.

It's simple. Don't confuse yourself with gamey interpretations.



#4 KingRotten

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:11 AM

Thank you for your response.  I've noticed that you disagree with me on Temporal Stasis, but agree with me on Field of Carnage.  These two cards seem to operate on a very similar line.   One keeps enemies out, the other keeps them in.  I have to wonder how it is they are not resolved at the same time (when played).  Both have an effect that is only relevant in the current summoning phase.

I don't suppose you know of a way to contact the game designers?  Or someone from Fantasy Flight who is absolutely in the know?  I don't want to be playing a delusional version of the rules.

The fact that Soporific Musk and Warp Shield are considered immediately resolved, is something I find a bit confusing.  Granted, when you play either of those cards, a figure is chosen and the card's effects persist throughout the round.  This means the cards are triggered immediately, but not resolved.  Warp Shield's resolution is battle phase and Soporific Musk would be resolved in corruption phase (also battle phase if upgraded Bloodsworn).

I also compare Rain of Pus to Warp Shield in this regard.  Rain of Pus doesn't require you to choose one figure like Warp Shield, because the decision is made for you, it is all them, isn't it?

I will send another post when I have more timelater tonight probably.

Thank you again.

 



#5 Kushiel

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:01 PM

KingRotten said:

I don't suppose you know of a way to contact the game designers? 

At the very bottom of this page, there's a link in small text called "Rules Questions." Follow it and be patient waiting for a response.



#6 KingRotten

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 07:01 PM

Thank you.  I really should have spotted that link.  It'll be nice to alleviate this confusion.  I think it's an outstanding game-just this one problem with that card and finding out that warp shield and soporific musk are considered resolved immediately etc. etc. etc.  has had me wondering what other cards might fall into their category. 

Yes, I have been known to overly complicate things.

 



#7 KingRotten

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 04:37 PM

Got an answer back from FFG which informed me that basically every card I have listed would actually be canceled under these circumstances.  Thank you to those who have responded.  Please do ignore this posting.  My question has been answered.

 



#8 BarcSsarc

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:51 AM

From the FAQ:

Q: Can the Tzeentch card “Changer of Ways” cancel effects that have already been resolved?

 

A: No. The “Changer of Ways” Chaos card effectively
cancels the text on the other cards in the same region. If
the effect generated by a card would be resolved later in
the round, it would be nullified by “Changer of Ways.” If
the effect has already been resolved, “Changer of Ways”
does not undo another card’s effects.






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