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New Deathwatch Designer Diary: Chapters of the Deathwatch, Part 2


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#1 FFG Ross Watson

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 09:34 AM

Hi Deathwatch fans!

This week, my designer diary reveals the second Space Marine Chapter for the Deathwatch core rulebook. Enjoy!



#2 Rictus

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:03 AM

That's two of the First Founding down then...

So, given that if the trend follows form the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and two other chapters will follow - most likely of the First Founding.

Oh well, I guess the chance of the Rainbow Warriors chapter turning up is slim...

 



#3 Atheosis

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:15 AM

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads.  This is just so boring.



#4 Atheosis

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:18 AM

By the way Ross (though I'm almost certain I'll get no response), was it you and the other FFG designers who decided to go with the big name Chapters or did GW insist on it?  Just wondering.



#5 Wilfred Owen

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 11:12 AM

Atheosis said:

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads.  This is just so boring.

Okay, we get that it's boring to you.  Do you honestly think that the key chapters idea is objectively boring, or perhaps it was a wise business decision - or, shock horror, they chapters are popular for a reason?  I'm no fan of the Ultramarines or Space Wolves, heck even the Blood Angels; but to not include them would be downright silly, simply because they are such rich lore and a wide fan base.



#6 Atheosis

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:33 PM

Wilfred Owen said:

 

Atheosis said:

 

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads.  This is just so boring.

 

 

Okay, we get that it's boring to you.  Do you honestly think that the key chapters idea is objectively boring, or perhaps it was a wise business decision - or, shock horror, they chapters are popular for a reason?  I'm no fan of the Ultramarines or Space Wolves, heck even the Blood Angels; but to not include them would be downright silly, simply because they are such rich lore and a wide fan base.

 

 

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing (from a marketing standpoint as you pointed out).  It's not the inclusion of a bunch of Chapters of Legend that I have an issue with, it's that that's all that's going to be avaiable.  Hell they aren't even doing enough Chapters to cover all of the First Founding Chapters.  As I said in another thread they really needed to offer a Chapter creation system in the core book so that we can represent whatever Chapter we want rather than being forced to choose from a measly six Chapters (even if we can use them as counts as as some have suggested, as I'm pretty much inclined to see that as a cop out).  That they either a)expect us to be happy with such limited choices, b) expect us to come up with our own rules so we can play this game with the true variety that should be represented within Deathwatch, or c) expect us to patiently wait for a year plus until they come out with a Chapter supplement, just plain irritates me.  I'll probably opt for option b, but then again I wonder if I should reward such nonsense with my patronage.  (Oh who am I kidding?  I love Space Marines too much not to buy this.) 

For those who are happy with all of this, cheers.  To me it all just smacks of a designer choosing to hold back on providing a full system so they can charge people for yet another overpriced book later.   Kind of reminds me of how they left out so much with the space combat in RT.  That still rubs me the wrong way when I think about it.



#7 jman5000

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 02:13 PM

Atheosis said:

Wilfred Owen said:

 

Atheosis said:

 

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads.  This is just so boring.

 

 

Okay, we get that it's boring to you.  Do you honestly think that the key chapters idea is objectively boring, or perhaps it was a wise business decision - or, shock horror, they chapters are popular for a reason?  I'm no fan of the Ultramarines or Space Wolves, heck even the Blood Angels; but to not include them would be downright silly, simply because they are such rich lore and a wide fan base.

 

 

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing (from a marketing standpoint as you pointed out).  It's not the inclusion of a bunch of Chapters of Legend that I have an issue with, it's that that's all that's going to be avaiable.  Hell they aren't even doing enough Chapters to cover all of the First Founding Chapters.  As I said in another thread they really needed to offer a Chapter creation system in the core book so that we can represent whatever Chapter we want rather than being forced to choose from a measly six Chapters (even if we can use them as counts as as some have suggested, as I'm pretty much inclined to see that as a cop out).  That they either a)expect us to be happy with such limited choices, b) expect us to come up with our own rules so we can play this game with the true variety that should be represented within Deathwatch, or c) expect us to patiently wait for a year plus until they come out with a Chapter supplement, just plain irritates me.  I'll probably opt for option b, but then again I wonder if I should reward such nonsense with my patronage.  (Oh who am I kidding?  I love Space Marines too much not to buy this.) 

For those who are happy with all of this, cheers.  To me it all just smacks of a designer choosing to hold back on providing a full system so they can charge people for yet another overpriced book later.   Kind of reminds me of how they left out so much with the space combat in RT.  That still rubs me the wrong way when I think about it.

 

Dude!

 

I never post here, only lurk, but, um, this is a role playing game.  6 chapters is IMO enough information to template off of, and understand how chapters are built to build any one you want.  you don't like it.  a) don't buy the game, b) make up your own chapters that better reflect the kind of game YOU want to play.

and for people like me, who have no (or next to no) prior knowledge of wh40k cannon and lore, having the archetype chapters is actually welcome.

the level of viciousness on this forum astounds me. 

 

Cheers,

J.



#8 Wilfred Owen

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 02:37 PM

Atheosis said:

Wilfred Owen said:

 

Atheosis said:

 

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads.  This is just so boring.

 

 

Okay, we get that it's boring to you.  Do you honestly think that the key chapters idea is objectively boring, or perhaps it was a wise business decision - or, shock horror, they chapters are popular for a reason?  I'm no fan of the Ultramarines or Space Wolves, heck even the Blood Angels; but to not include them would be downright silly, simply because they are such rich lore and a wide fan base.

 

 

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing (from a marketing standpoint as you pointed out).  It's not the inclusion of a bunch of Chapters of Legend that I have an issue with, it's that that's all that's going to be avaiable.  Hell they aren't even doing enough Chapters to cover all of the First Founding Chapters.  As I said in another thread they really needed to offer a Chapter creation system in the core book so that we can represent whatever Chapter we want rather than being forced to choose from a measly six Chapters (even if we can use them as counts as as some have suggested, as I'm pretty much inclined to see that as a cop out).  That they either a)expect us to be happy with such limited choices, b) expect us to come up with our own rules so we can play this game with the true variety that should be represented within Deathwatch, or c) expect us to patiently wait for a year plus until they come out with a Chapter supplement, just plain irritates me.  I'll probably opt for option b, but then again I wonder if I should reward such nonsense with my patronage.  (Oh who am I kidding?  I love Space Marines too much not to buy this.) 

For those who are happy with all of this, cheers.  To me it all just smacks of a designer choosing to hold back on providing a full system so they can charge people for yet another overpriced book later.   Kind of reminds me of how they left out so much with the space combat in RT.  That still rubs me the wrong way when I think about it.

 

Okay, that makes sense.  Yeah, I can see where you are coming from.



#9 Atheosis

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 03:30 PM

jman5000 said:

Atheosis said:

 

Wilfred Owen said:

 

Atheosis said:

 

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads.  This is just so boring.

 

 

Okay, we get that it's boring to you.  Do you honestly think that the key chapters idea is objectively boring, or perhaps it was a wise business decision - or, shock horror, they chapters are popular for a reason?  I'm no fan of the Ultramarines or Space Wolves, heck even the Blood Angels; but to not include them would be downright silly, simply because they are such rich lore and a wide fan base.

 

 

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing (from a marketing standpoint as you pointed out).  It's not the inclusion of a bunch of Chapters of Legend that I have an issue with, it's that that's all that's going to be avaiable.  Hell they aren't even doing enough Chapters to cover all of the First Founding Chapters.  As I said in another thread they really needed to offer a Chapter creation system in the core book so that we can represent whatever Chapter we want rather than being forced to choose from a measly six Chapters (even if we can use them as counts as as some have suggested, as I'm pretty much inclined to see that as a cop out).  That they either a)expect us to be happy with such limited choices, b) expect us to come up with our own rules so we can play this game with the true variety that should be represented within Deathwatch, or c) expect us to patiently wait for a year plus until they come out with a Chapter supplement, just plain irritates me.  I'll probably opt for option b, but then again I wonder if I should reward such nonsense with my patronage.  (Oh who am I kidding?  I love Space Marines too much not to buy this.) 

For those who are happy with all of this, cheers.  To me it all just smacks of a designer choosing to hold back on providing a full system so they can charge people for yet another overpriced book later.   Kind of reminds me of how they left out so much with the space combat in RT.  That still rubs me the wrong way when I think about it.

 

 

 

Dude!

 

I never post here, only lurk, but, um, this is a role playing game.  6 chapters is IMO enough information to template off of, and understand how chapters are built to build any one you want.  you don't like it.  a) don't buy the game, b) make up your own chapters that better reflect the kind of game YOU want to play.

and for people like me, who have no (or next to no) prior knowledge of wh40k cannon and lore, having the archetype chapters is actually welcome.

the level of viciousness on this forum astounds me. 

 

Cheers,

J.

Not sure what was vicious about my post.  I was simply voicing my criticisms of the design route they've decided to take.

And I already said I would probably come up with my own rules, but when I pay sixty bucks for a book I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a complete system that doesn't need that kind of work.  GMing is hard enough without having to create your own rules from scratch.

By the way "archetype" would be something like feral/barbarian Chapter rather than the Space Wolves or secretive/taciturn Chapter rather than the Dark Angels.  Actual named Chapters are not really archetypes per se.



#10 MILLANDSON

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 12:56 AM

However, think about it. The game has to be solid enough for complete newbies to the 40k setting to get into. This means that the popular chapters have to be involved, because they cover several core concepts, and with their rich history of background, usefully demonstrate just how different one chapter can be from another.

Having a "make your own chapter" rules, to the detriment of having these chapters in the book, would be useless for newbies, as they wouldn't know where to start with it all. Ultimately, with the roleplay books, they have to be newbie friendly. I'm sure you want newbies to buy into the series and help FFG to be able to keep making new books, right?

Plus, they only have between 350-400 pages to use. Some things just won't make the cut, and will have to be put in a future book. It's sad, because we'd all like everything in it, but that's the nature of the book publishing industry.


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Posts/views/opinions are in no way representative of FFG, and are entirely my own.


#11 Tullio

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 02:04 AM

I'm prepared to put up with it, mostly because only so much will fit into one book, but also because this probably means some nice big blocks of text going into the mindset of the Astartes which can only be a good thing



#12 Atheosis

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 02:38 AM

MILLANDSON said:

However, think about it. The game has to be solid enough for complete newbies to the 40k setting to get into. This means that the popular chapters have to be involved, because they cover several core concepts, and with their rich history of background, usefully demonstrate just how different one chapter can be from another.

Having a "make your own chapter" rules, to the detriment of having these chapters in the book, would be useless for newbies, as they wouldn't know where to start with it all. Ultimately, with the roleplay books, they have to be newbie friendly. I'm sure you want newbies to buy into the series and help FFG to be able to keep making new books, right?

Plus, they only have between 350-400 pages to use. Some things just won't make the cut, and will have to be put in a future book. It's sad, because we'd all like everything in it, but that's the nature of the book publishing industry.

I don't get why people think there isn't enough room in a 400 page book for more than six Chapters and Chapter creation rules.  400 pages is quite a bit.  The question does bring up something else that is kind of annoying: the amount of page space they use on the same basic rules for each of the 40k Roleplay games.  I find myself really wishing that they would have come out with the core rules and then printed various expansions (DH, RT, DW, etc.) instead of giving me the same stuff over and over while charging me sixty bucks a pop.



#13 Aajav-Khan

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 02:43 AM

    A DD! Yay! Wait...Ultramarines. OK, no suprises here. Moving on.



#14 MILLANDSON

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 03:34 AM

Atheosis said:

 

I don't get why people think there isn't enough room in a 400 page book for more than six Chapters and Chapter creation rules.  400 pages is quite a bit.  The question does bring up something else that is kind of annoying: the amount of page space they use on the same basic rules for each of the 40k Roleplay games.  I find myself really wishing that they would have come out with the core rules and then printed various expansions (DH, RT, DW, etc.) instead of giving me the same stuff over and over while charging me sixty bucks a pop.

Because that's how Black Industries started it, so it's a bit late to go back and redo it now, and as much as I like the nWoD/etc style of 1 core rulebook and then expansions for different types of character, that way results in people having to buy two books minimum to play one game, rather than just the one.

Plus, with a setting the size of the 40k one, 400 pages really isn't a lot. They're going to have to squash a lot of fluff into those 400 pages.

You have yet to read the book, so you should probably wait before writing it off. That's what I'm doing, at least.


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

Posts/views/opinions are in no way representative of FFG, and are entirely my own.


#15 Stinger

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 05:26 AM

Atheosis said:

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads.  This is just so boring.

All this whining and moaning - and you say you're going to buy it anyway. You don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. If you're going to lay out the money, find a way to live with it and give us all a rest already.



#16 davidasnoddy

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 05:29 AM

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing

I think 6 chapters is plenty for the core rulebook.

Complaining about only 6 chapters, is like complaining about only 6 homeworlds in Rogue Trader, to be honest.  6 chapters, with various "careers" (did anyone notice that was an Apothecary picture in the Design Diary?) and a decent "origin path" style affair, should give us a wealth of character creation options.

There's plenty of scope to release little known chapters down the line, but leaving out the Ultramarines would be ridiculous, as they are the "base line" of Space Marines, and leaving out the Wolves or the Dark Angels would inspire idiotic nerd rage to the point of hurting sales - probably not to the point of making a large financial impact, but enough for awkward questions to be asked of the DT as to ehy they left out the more popular chapters.

At the end of the day, this is the Deathwatch Core Rulebook - what is core to GW Space Marines?  Is it the ability to create your own chapter?  Or is it the background and history of those chapters already in existence in the published material?

Finally - rules wise, create your own chapter in the core rules would be a disaster - that's way too much customisation when we haven't established whether or not the rules work.  What happens if Full Auto is a bit too powerful in Deathwath given the Marines' increased base BS... and the customisation rules allow for Full Auto specialisation, or something?

"Create your chapter" has to come AFTER the Core Rules - and leaving out a core chapter from the core rules would just leave egg on everyone's faces.  There'll still be space for two lesser known chapters - Iron Hands and Black Templars, or something.

My guess, by the way, is that we'll see those two last on the spoilers list, to keep everyone waiting...



#17 Psion

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 05:31 AM

I love how I can usually tell who the DD is about before I see the big fat chapter symbol...

Anyway, peanut gallery comments aside, still waiting for FFG to mention mechanics or start talking about Jericho Reach itself, that might be interesting.  To see what planets are there, what xenos thrive in that area, and what kind of lost colonies await to be found...



#18 SonofDorn

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 06:07 AM

MILLANDSON said:

However, think about it. The game has to be solid enough for complete newbies to the 40k setting to get into. This means that the popular chapters have to be involved, because they cover several core concepts, and with their rich history of background, usefully demonstrate just how different one chapter can be from another.

Having a "make your own chapter" rules, to the detriment of having these chapters in the book, would be useless for newbies, as they wouldn't know where to start with it all. Ultimately, with the roleplay books, they have to be newbie friendly. I'm sure you want newbies to buy into the series and help FFG to be able to keep making new books, right?

Plus, they only have between 350-400 pages to use. Some things just won't make the cut, and will have to be put in a future book. It's sad, because we'd all like everything in it, but that's the nature of the book publishing industry.

 

Truer words were never spoken and I have the same sentiments.


"The soul of the Imperial Fist can be found in his sword."

 


#19 Atheosis

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 07:26 AM

davidasnoddy said:

 

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing

I think 6 chapters is plenty for the core rulebook.

Complaining about only 6 chapters, is like complaining about only 6 homeworlds in Rogue Trader, to be honest.  6 chapters, with various "careers" (did anyone notice that was an Apothecary picture in the Design Diary?) and a decent "origin path" style affair, should give us a wealth of character creation options.

There's plenty of scope to release little known chapters down the line, but leaving out the Ultramarines would be ridiculous, as they are the "base line" of Space Marines, and leaving out the Wolves or the Dark Angels would inspire idiotic nerd rage to the point of hurting sales - probably not to the point of making a large financial impact, but enough for awkward questions to be asked of the DT as to ehy they left out the more popular chapters.

At the end of the day, this is the Deathwatch Core Rulebook - what is core to GW Space Marines?  Is it the ability to create your own chapter?  Or is it the background and history of those chapters already in existence in the published material?

Finally - rules wise, create your own chapter in the core rules would be a disaster - that's way too much customisation when we haven't established whether or not the rules work.  What happens if Full Auto is a bit too powerful in Deathwath given the Marines' increased base BS... and the customisation rules allow for Full Auto specialisation, or something?

"Create your chapter" has to come AFTER the Core Rules - and leaving out a core chapter from the core rules would just leave egg on everyone's faces.  There'll still be space for two lesser known chapters - Iron Hands and Black Templars, or something.

My guess, by the way, is that we'll see those two last on the spoilers list, to keep everyone waiting...

 

 

I could pick apart most of your statements, but it occurs to me that virtually all of you are cool with the way they've decided to do it, so I'll let it go.  If everyone is happy with the lack of variety they've decided to offer, far be it for me to rain on your parade.



#20 Artemesia

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 08:00 AM

oh no theyre adding the core popular chapters that have been a staple of 40k for years how could they do this i dont understand im so upset and im not gonna shut up about it ever

 

Cool story.






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