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Poison and web token rules updated?


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#1 Nematode

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 03:49 PM

I was comparing the old green giant spider card with the new blue widow spider card.  I noticed that there are significant differences between the two on rules for web and poison tokens.  So, then I compared them with the poison attack from the wood wyvern and found that its counters have an identical effect with those of the blue spider. 

1) I am assuming that all web or poison counters from the old green spider should now use the same rules as the blue spider.  Otherwise, you could run into the annoying situation of having multiple counters of the same type on the board from different sources following different rules.

2) Also, do you suppose that the web effect of the spider should trigger a critical hit check for a dragon in the same way that a lore card with a web or hold effect can?

3) If a spider rolls both a lore to web a unit and one or more flags at the same time, which gets resolved first -- the web or the retreat?



#2 toddrew

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 07:25 PM

It'll still be a couple of weeks before I get my hands on Creatures, but I can certainly answer #3 as it relates to the original Giant Spider:  The web occurs "first" in that the targeted unit will be webbed and take a hit (assuming it isn't a dwarf or creature or other unit that is able to ignore a flag(s) through means other than support or terrain).



#3 caradoc

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 11:25 PM

1) Not sure sorry!

 

2) I believe the web effect for the dragons is only if the spell takes effect while it is flying?  For a spider to web a dragon it would have to do it in melee - in which case I shouldn't think the dragon would take a critical hit.  However, if the dragon was forced to retreat while webbed - then it should... That's how I'd rule it anyways... unless there is a more official answer about the place!

 

3) I lost a scenario the other day due to this very thing! A webbed lone cavalry figure forced to reatreat. Close game it was too - until that happened! :D


Cheers,

Giles.
 



#4 toddrew

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 12:26 AM

caradoc said:

 

2) I believe the web effect for the dragons is only if the spell takes effect while it is flying?  For a spider to web a dragon it would have to do it in melee - in which case I shouldn't think the dragon would take a critical hit.  However, if the dragon was forced to retreat while webbed - then it should... That's how I'd rule it anyways... unless there is a more official answer about the place!

 

 

Aha.  I didn't understand this question at first (thought it was maybe related to the Blue Spider's abilities), but now I do.  Unless there are some subtleties I am missing - yeah, what Giles said (except that, as always with Dragons, the first flag rolled against it could be ignored, and any other flags would count as single hits, so it would take a combination of two flags + one other hit from a battle roll on a webbed Dragon to cause the first critical check).

EDIT: and this is for the Green Spider web rules - I still don't know what (if any) the changes are for the Blue Spider.



#5 caradoc

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 12:49 AM

Good point!  I forgot that the rules had changed for the Blue Widow - I too am waiting on Creatures!

 

Cheers,

Giles.



#6 Nematode

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 01:30 PM

I got lazy on my original post and didn't include this info.  It should help clarify what I was talking about for the folks without the blue widow card yet.

Giant Spider Web: The unit is caught  in a web. Until freed, it may not move or battle.  All flags rolled against it count as hits.  To free the unit, issue an order to it, and pay 1 Lore.

Blue Widow Web: Place a Web token on the unit the Spider is attacking.  A webbed unit may not move, battle, or retreat.  Flags cannot be ignored when the unit is caught in a web.  To remove a Web token, order the webbed unit and pay 1 Lore.

Fundamental difference here is that the green spider web translated flags directly into one hit each, while the blue spider web falls back on the normal retreat rules to do the damage.  This makes the blue web much nastier against any enemy who must retreat multiple hexes per flag.

Giant Spider Poison: If the unit is also hit, it becomes poisoned.  All future lore rolled score a hit, killing 1 figure each.

Blue Widow Poison:  Place a Poison token and a Web token on the unit being attacked.  The unit is caught in a web and is also poisoned.  A poisoned unit suffers a hit for each lore rolled against and by the unit.  To remove a Poison token, order the unit (must not have a Web token) and pay 2 Lore.

The first part on the blue spider is nothing more than a reflection of the new creature rules and how they already affected the green spider.  The second part is a little fuzy to me as far as it being a change.  Maybe it was always intended that lore rolled both against and by the unit was supposed to cause hits.  It's just not especially clear the way it is stated on the green spider.  The last part about being able to remove the poison token is a clear addition.  This brings it in line with the wood wyvern's poison attack making poison tokens from the wyvern and blue spider functionally the same.  IMO this makes the poison a little weak since you have to attack the poisoned unit the same turn as poisoning it to take advantage of its weakened state.

Until I hear otherwise, I am just going to treat the green spider as if it has the same descriptions of web and poison on its card as the blue spider.



#7 toddrew

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 05:29 PM

This is where I wish there was more interaction on FFG's part - that is a big change between the web from the Green Spider to the Blue one.  Another Dragon killer has been introduced alongside the Bagpipes ;)  It would be good to hear someone with insight to the game designing going on to say "yup - that's what we mean (and better still, here's why we mean it...)" or "oops - just one hit per flag."  Hopefully the Creature (and Lore Cards) Compendium makes its way to the Support pages where "living rules" type discussions can take place.

Nematode said:

(Re: Poison abilities)  The first part on the blue spider is nothing more than a reflection of the new creature rules and how they already affected the green spider.  The second part is a little fuzy to me as far as it being a change.  Maybe it was always intended that lore rolled both against and by the unit was supposed to cause hits.  It's just not especially clear the way it is stated on the green spider.  The last part about being able to remove the poison token is a clear addition.  This brings it in line with the wood wyvern's poison attack making poison tokens from the wyvern and blue spider functionally the same.  IMO this makes the poison a little weak since you have to attack the poisoned unit the same turn as poisoning it to take advantage of its weakened state.

There was never any mention (that I remember anyway) of lore rolled by the affected unit also causing hits from the Green Spider's poison (though that would've made actually using the ability a little more inticing - as it is/was I never once used Poison, always used the stored lore for webs).  This is a change, and a relatively powerful one at that.  The change to having the ability to "cure" a unit is, I think, a necessary one, as the ability would be too powerful without it, even though the incidence of rolling two lore in a single attack will be low.

Nematode said:

Until I hear otherwise, I am just going to treat the green spider as if it has the same descriptions of web and poison on its card as the blue spider.

Seems reasonable to me, especially if that is the intent of the new rules, to basically make the main difference between the green and blue the number of attack dice.  Does the Blue Widow also move 4 hexes, or just 3 (or some other value altogether :) )?



#8 Nematode

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 08:45 PM

Just like cavalry.  Moves 3 and battles 3 for the blue.



#9 toddrew

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:53 AM

I kinda have a problem with the Blue Widow then (if the movement value was 4, I would certainly have a problem ;) ), unless it is a Level 2 creature.  It is not distinct enough from the Giant Spider.  I might have the same issue with the Wood Giant, but I haven't gotten into it too much - my initial feeling is that there will be times when it is preferred over the Hill Giant.  For the Blue Widow/Giant Spider however, I don't believe the additional hex of movement is anywhere close to offsetting the additional die.  If lore could be stored and webs were in effect guaranteed, then the power of that extra movement would be more significant, perhaps even balancing between the two creatures.

But, this isn't a huge problem in the game, as set adventures can cure this problem.  Problem is, we don't have many adventures with pre-determined creatures.



#10 FragMaster

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 03:50 AM

Copy-Paste from R.Borg's previous answer regarding the Spider:

 

In regard to our Green Banner Spider with both a 1 Lore and 2 Lore Special Power.

Green Banner Spider rolls 1 Lore, the unit that is being attacked is caught in a web.

Green Banner Spider rolls 2 Lore, the unit that is being attacked is caught in a web AND is also poisoned. No hit is required to poison.

If you wish, make a note on your Giant Spider summary card.

Two Lore - The unit is caught in a web and it is also Poisoned. Place poison token on unit and each Lore rolled against the unit or each Lore rolled by the unit will score one hit on the unit. To remove a poison token the unit must be free of the web, and owner must pay 2 Lore.

Our upgraded Green Banner Spider may not be as powerful as its big sister the Blue Widow Spider (coming in the Creature Pack) but our upgraded Green Banner Spider on a double Lore roll isn't bad.

Enjoy!

Richard Borg

 

I'm pretty sure that the Web rules are universal among all creatures and the same goes for Poison. If we have two different rules for the same effect it will only cause confusion and nothing else.

I assume that the Blue Spider's text is the new implementation of both the Web and Poison effects.



#11 toddrew

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:29 AM

Nematode said:

The second part is a little fuzy to me as far as it being a change.  Maybe it was always intended that lore rolled both against and by the unit was supposed to cause hits.  It's just not especially clear the way it is stated on the green spider. 

Dug a little deeper and the notion that lore rolled by the poisoned unit would also cause a hit was house rule suggested by DoW to make the poison ability more enticing to use.  The original rules for poison made it so that it was a) hard to pull off and b) rarely more useful than storing the lore to be used as webs later.



#12 Weaselboy

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:05 PM

Web hasn't changed, just the wording. Even if the unit cannot ignore flags

it still cannot move and therefore takes casualties instead of retreating.



#13 LurchBrick

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 09:10 PM

G'day all,

I've only just recently gotten into Battlelore and it's expansions (French editions = best recent idea by FFG) and am having a great time learning all the new rules. One query I have that I haven't seen answered directly is about removing the Blue widow's Web and poison token from a unit.

Here is the pertinent part from the Blue widow spider card:

Blue widow poison: Place a Poison token and a Web token on the unit being attacked. A poisoned unit suffers a hit for each Lore rolled against and by the unit. To remove a Poison token, order the unit (must not have a Web token) and pay 2 Lore.

In the last sentence, it states that the unit must not have a Web token before it can remove the Poison token. Does this mean that a unit which has both a Web and Poison token needs 2 turns to remove these abilities? I.e. First the unit has to be ordered and then pay 1 Lore to remove it's Web token. Then on the next turn, the unit has to be ordered again and then pay 2 Lore to remove the Poison token before moving and battling.

Or can the player pay 3 tokens to first remove the Web (1 Lore) and then remove the Poison (2 Lore) all in the 1 turn? And then move and battle with that unit?

Cheers for all your responses.



#14 Caboose

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 10:20 AM

Lurch, I'll take a stab at your question (but I have not played with the new spider..sadly).

I would surmise, that once you order that unit and pay the 3 lore (for both the web and poison), that will remove both.  Also I suspect, that when you order such unit, that remove of both items will constitute that unit's turn (i.e. you can't order the unit, pay the 3 lore and then use it to attack/move/battle, etc).

Now, if one is smart with playing the spider, you attack with the spider on a unit, hit it with the poison and web and then attack such poison and web unit with the other units on such turn (i.e. to get the kill on the unit).    And those battlebacks on the poisoned web unit (which I think they can do...have to look at the FAQ on webbed units but I don't think they can battleback?! - but also that was before all these new rule changes too ) will definitely hurt on defending unit [i.e. lores are hits to it!]   (Update - web units cannot support other figures using the old rules plus the webbed unit took a hit for each flag rolled against it that it couldn't ignore - that is all I found in the FAQ so I guess a web unit can battleback! - wierd but true, based on looking at the FAQ!)

Cab



#15 LurchBrick

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:45 PM

G'day Caboose,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't believe you are correct about the unit which is webbed/poisoned not being able to move and attack in the same turn as they removed these effects. I recall reading a post (by R. Borg) in another thread that the unit is allowed to continue battling in the same turn it was freed.

The reason I asked this question was only because the Poison description of the Blue widow spider specifically states that Poison can only be removed if there is no Web token present, which says to me that you first have to remove the Web token and thus spend an additional Lore to do so.

By the way, if you want to try out the new spider, you should get onto Vassal and try it out. Sorry to steal your thunder here Todd. :) I am currently updating the Vassal module to include all the latest expansions (Heroes, Dragons, Horrific Horde, etc) so you'll be able to try out all the great new units. Or even trial your own Heroic style ones. ;)



#16 toddrew

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:34 AM

LurchBrick said:

Sorry to steal your thunder here Todd. :)

No worries ;)  I am just glad to have some more people creating storms about BattleLore on Vassal   I am hoping that once the Vassal module is up to speed with the expansions, a BL vassal renaissance can be fostered...ah the sublime times of summer 2007, when no one was lonely on the BL vassal server...



#17 skolo

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:46 AM

did you trie Zuntzu with Battlelore?






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