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Allied Units, can they attack?


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#1 Asylur

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 08:22 AM

OK, I am now reading through the rules a second time, trying to understand the nuances before playing (hopefully) next week.  I just assumed that allied (previously neutral) units could attack an enemy territory, but now upon further reading, I'm not so sure.

Page 19 under allied units:

"If these allied units are ever in an area not controlled by the player, then they stop being allied to him.  The units are then considered normal neutral units that may ally with or be attacked by any player."

This states that the allied units only stay allied while in a FRIENDLY territory, and by defination any attacks you launch are into neutral or enemy territory.  Also using the word EVER does not leave wiggle room to resolve this at the end of a phase or something.  Furthermore, the example of combat on pages 23 and 24 does involve allied units, but only for the defending troops (and thus the territory is freindly to the defenders).

It would make life very complicated if an attacker brought in allied troops into a battle, if in fact they revert to neutral since they are not part in a friendly territory.  How would the combat work?  Letter of the law makes it sound like they would actually be controlled by the player to the left of the attacker, potentially making 3 players involved in one combat...

Is it correct (and intended) that allied units are only able to participate in defending territory, and not ever participate in taking new territory?

It seems odd to me that a dragon can't attack, only defend. 

Just cusious what the community's (and designer's?) read on this is.

Thanks!

PS My ruling would be that this is not as intended, and in teh case of a battle, the determination of "freindly territory" is made after the battle is resolved.  That is not what is written  in the rules as far as I can see though. 



#2 broken

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:41 AM

I think you are stretching this.  It is obviously meant that their status as allied/unallied is determined after a battle is resolved, and not immediately upon entering an area.  Yes, you can attack (mobilize) enemy territories with them, as long as they are accompanied by friendly units.

Furthermore, an area where a battle is to be fought is a contested area.  If an area can be both a contested and controlled area at the same time, then by the definition of controlled area, BOTH players would control a contested area:

"Controlled Area: A player controls an area if he has
at least one plastic unit (including routed units) of
his color and/or one of his strongholds in the area.
Having only a hero or neutral units in an area does
not make an area controlled. Players always control
areas in their home realm unless enemy units are
present."

If an area cannot be both controlled and contested at the same time, then defending allied neutral units would defect immediately when enemy units moved into their area, regardless of whether or not there were friendly units with them.  Since that is obviously not the case (they would be worthless if it were), the first case must be true (or at least mostly true) and your argument is not backed by the rules.



#3 Asylur

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 12:02 PM

Ok, I understand your argument for controlled and contested areas.  Your argument then implies that any cards or special abilities that apply to friendly areas apply then to contested areas as well.  I think that many players will have a problem with you using a tactics card on an invasion of enemy territoryif that card states it is played in a friendly territory.  However if that is how you want to resolve the connundrum, cool.

Personally, I think that the wording is just messed up, and that it was not fully thought through.  I think that the allied units were meant to be able to attack, but the section was poorly worded.  I will probably play it "house ruled" that they can attack until a FAQ comes out, I just want to point out the inconsistencies and hope that they will be resolved soon.



#4 ShivaX

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 06:30 PM

Asylur said:

Ok, I understand your argument for controlled and contested areas.  Your argument then implies that any cards or special abilities that apply to friendly areas apply then to contested areas as well.  I think that many players will have a problem with you using a tactics card on an invasion of enemy territoryif that card states it is played in a friendly territory.  However if that is how you want to resolve the connundrum, cool.

I don't see why it would change tactics cards.

You're just looking to make it more complicated than it needs to be.



#5 Taki

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 08:24 AM

Asylur said:

Ok, I understand your argument for controlled and contested areas.  Your argument then implies that any cards or special abilities that apply to friendly areas apply then to contested areas as well.  I think that many players will have a problem with you using a tactics card on an invasion of enemy territoryif that card states it is played in a friendly territory.  However if that is how you want to resolve the connundrum, cool.

Personally, I think that the wording is just messed up, and that it was not fully thought through.  I think that the allied units were meant to be able to attack, but the section was poorly worded.  I will probably play it "house ruled" that they can attack until a FAQ comes out, I just want to point out the inconsistencies and hope that they will be resolved soon.

First off, assumingly all the units are moving out of the hex at the same time, so they re never "alone" to revert to neutrality, secondly a battle is an event.  This means that there is technically no control and no pieces on the tile at all, you take them off the board to do battle with. Explicitely. In the rules.  This is also theoretically why you can pile more than 8 units in a hex while attacking (from different starting points even), and only kill them off after the battle is over, if you are still over you limit of troops.  Not an issue.






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