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Underwhelmed by OP


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#1 Unifiedshoe

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 07:56 PM

One of the things I feel the more I look into each of the LCG's FFG puts out is that there is little to no Organized Play for the games. I live in a city with plenty of active gaming but judging from the websites of my local stores no one is playing these games. I know from speaking to the people at each shop that the games sell okay, and that on average each store has 4 CoC players, 6 AGOT players, and 12 W:I players. None of these people ever actually play at their stores though. Why doesn't FFG run a real Organized Play program and give people a reason to move their events out of their kitchens?

UFS had an OP system that distributed a few OP specific cards each month to players who attended at least one event. This encouraged people to build new decks more often, discuss what they were building, what others locally were playing, and to socialize and meet other players. it also kept people excited in the game by offering something cool each month in the form of a card or two that made it worth getting out of the house.

I have several friends who are competitive mtg players who are open to playing an LCG since it requires minimal investment, but they are put off by the lack of tournaments and company support. I could spend the effort to create a tournament scene by hanging out at the shops, demoing, etc. but without prizes to offer there's no real incentive for the largest group of card game players to give LCG's a try.



#2 LoneWanderer

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 05:56 AM

Consider your sentiments echoed.

I'm in a similar situation: living in a big city (London, UK), local stores selling LCGs (and shifting units), but no way of finding other people who are interested in the concept. I bought a core-set and a couple of CP's, but in the absence of other local players I just can't justify spending any money on the franchise.

There's just doesn't seem to be any 'push' from above to get the game played by more players, or to give existing players an opportunity to link up. Which is a real shame, because there's apparently some degree of local interest in the LCG concept here, but without any kind of organised support to latch onto, I'm stuck in isolation (what with internet-based contact attempts yielding few reults) and not buying, playing or spreading the game.

 



#3 vermillian

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 08:20 AM

Organized play exists. there are kits you can purchase. For instance the warhammer invasion kit had a binder as a prize, along with some pins i think, and also allows you to influence what card gets released in a future set. some kick butt destro beasty or some igh and mighty high elf unit.

THAT'S organized play, ain't it?

Or were you hoping for 0932792837423s of dollars in prize support and tournaments and electronics and such ala yugi / poke / naruto / BS?

As if. Some people DON'T want that. A little is ok. But to say that W:I / other LCGs have NO OP is a bit of a misrepresentation of it...

Perhaps its just advertised poorly... Email FFG to motivate them to change that. Posting here does nothing. THEY HARDLY READ THE FORUMS M I Rite?



#4 Unifiedshoe

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 11:56 AM

I definitely don't expect the company to dump money into the game by giving out cash prizes or computers, etc. What I would like is something more akin to L5R which has a regional tournament system called Kotei's which influence the story as opposed to the watered down version this game has.

I guess one of the side effects of the LCG system is that there is very little need for players to hang around stores looking for other people to trade with. Sure it happens but I've found in my area at least that the other players aren't even aware of each other, let alone seeking people out to play with.

Really, what I want is for the OP to present tournaments that feel in some way like an event.



#5 FangsFirst

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:52 PM

I agree that OP could be more promoted and still hang with the new OP stance, which is to let each store do what it wants to do. Here's a good question, do LCG's have some time of riders? The people who go out and actively promote the game is what I mean. That can also greatly help matters.

I wouldn't look to L5R as an example, it's a fairly unique beast and a good study in original IP versus licensed. With license you get instant recognition, but you are frequently hamstrung with what you can do, and this has been seen in just about every licensed CCG out there. L5R is the only CCG still around that has a deep story that started with the CCG, so it is very unique in how much the story and game can interact. Not saying it couldn't be done again, but I'd imagine it'd be hard to beat L5R at its own game.



#6 JerusalemJones

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 06:45 AM

I'll admit the LCG format does make for a tricky OP experience. For the last two years my store has been trying to get OP going at the levels it was prior to the LCG change. Lately, our Game of Thrones and Warhammer Leagues ahve met with success, but before that OP has been alot like pulling teeth. I attribute this to two factors:

1: The LCG switch. Game of Thrones was a huge game at our store. At its height, I could count on 6-8 players for my weekly tournaments, and we held two Regionals (Nationals as they later were called) events at our store. The initial switch switch to LCG lost me several players, then others dropped hte game because of what they felt the game "lost." I am trying to encourage many of these players back into the game, but it is a slow process, and they feel that now they have to spend too much $$ to buy what they missed.

2. Sporadic and inconsistent OP support. It took FFG a LONG time to figure out how to handle OP for the games. They used up what was left for GoT support in the first few months after the switch, before they made their LCG only announcement. Then they couldn't decide if they were providing free prize support (the initial offering of pins) ot charged support (what is now their League/OP kits). It made it hard for us to promote these games with OP support, when often we didn't know whic form it would take.

If FFG sticks with the current approach, it could work. But I think they need variety. I just finsihed two months of league play for both Thrones and Warhammer. Both leagues went over well, and I had enough prizes for all five thrones players, and the top 4 (of 11) in the Warhammer league. And everyone wants to do a new league, which I agree with they were alot of fun. But that means buying the same league kit I had last time. Now, the Warhammer players want the pins, as FFG has hinted tht the Pins will be used for exclsuive tournaments, most likely at the new event center,and the playmat is awesome take a note, FFG. Playmats for both Cthulhu and THrones, please please please! But I will be asking my players to again pay $5 to join a league, with no new prizes.

Now, the LCG has been a boon to these games. I never had Cthulhu players before, now there is a small handful, but 4 is still more than 0. Thrones is a see-saw, but most of us who play are dedicated. Warhammer drew the players because of the LCG format, and is keeping them because of how much fun the game is.

The LCG is challenging for OP the format of the game discourages using cards as prizes because the idea is there is no rarity or exclusivity. That's wy they went with pins, counters, binders and playmats. But I do feel that a strong OP program can help grow card games, and if FFG could take this to the next level, with rankings and multi-tiered tournaments at the local/state/regional/national/world level,, it would make a difference for the games. All of them



#7 Unifiedshoe

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 10:04 AM

I understand not using cards for OP in order to always present a card pool anyone can have. They could easily put promos out and just include them in chapter packs a few months down the line.

As someone who's played a few dozen ccg's I have my stacks of playmats, over 30 at least. as well as a ton of other specials including binders, sleeves, etc. Most of the other ccg players I know are in the same boat. This stuff just isn't exciting.

Of course, in the long run I don't care about OP in and of itself. I just want something that would bring some players out for the game.



#8 tech7

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 12:28 PM

Unifiedshoe said:

I understand not using cards for OP in order to always present a card pool anyone can have. They could easily put promos out and just include them in chapter packs a few months down the line.

As someone who's played a few dozen ccg's I have my stacks of playmats, over 30 at least. as well as a ton of other specials including binders, sleeves, etc. Most of the other ccg players I know are in the same boat. This stuff just isn't exciting.

Of course, in the long run I don't care about OP in and of itself. I just want something that would bring some players out for the game.

 

I wouldn't like promo cards unless it is the Magic approach (same card but different artwork and foil)



#9 JerusalemJones

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 02:17 PM

One of the ideas that has been floated b the community has been the "advanced" promo card a card that the winners can get a month or two before the Chapter Pack releases. I still think this is a decent idea it gives the winner something extra, but in the long run doesn't give them an advantage over all other players.



#10 Hellfury

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 01:25 AM

I hope the never make OP specific chase cards. I like the idea of cards made to give players an advanced look at a set, but chase cards need to go the way of the dodo since this isnt a collectible game by any means.

 

If its not a CCG, then the "special" malarky that people expect needs to be addressed, because this aint kansas anymore.



#11 vermillian

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 02:45 AM

MALLARKY!

Preview promos shouldn't be tournament legal though right? But then, what god would they be?

But I kind of support this preview promo thing.



#12 Whizzwang

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 03:12 AM

get off your backside and organise something yourself?



#13 Unifiedshoe

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:16 AM

Whizzwang said:

get off your backside and organise something yourself?

FROM THE OP:

I could spend the effort to create a tournament scene by hanging out at the shops, demoing, etc. but without prizes to offer there's no real incentive for the largest group of card game players to give LCG's a try.

==================

People do expect a certain something if they are going to invest in a game. Since all games are by fun by definition and since the practice of the card game market has been to offer gamers prizes for participation, the fact that this one doesn't isn't doing anyone any favors.

When you live in a market where the average MTG night gets 40-50 players and NO other game can support even 3-4 people you need all the help you get.

Thanks for the suggestion tho... very helpful.



#14 obsidian3d

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 09:27 AM

Let's be accurate here... some people expect to get something out of investing in a game (beyond actually having a game to play).  However, I think that for those people there are already games out there that can be played at a high tournament level where they can win prizes and maybe money.  The LCG's model for organized play shouldn't follow that same strategy simply because it's a different kind of game. 

I've already paid my money to get the cards...why should I feel entitled to anything else simply for playing? That's ridiculous.  All I want from an OP is a place to play games and maybe a framework for the organizer to make it fun and thematic.  I play games to have fun.  That's all anyone should play games for in my opinion, but I know that not everyone agrees with that.



#15 Unifiedshoe

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:48 AM

obsidian3d said:

I've already paid my money to get the cards...why should I feel entitled to anything else simply for playing? That's ridiculous. 

FFG charges for it's OP packs, so that's something else you're paying for. Why not get something worthwhile from it as opposed to a playmat and/or binder?



#16 Rakshasa

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:40 PM

Please - I already have a playmat, and mine has Tyranitar on it. Beat that, FFG.

I will say, though - pretty much everyone I know just plays games for the sake of it - we don't really expect an organised tournament structure and expecting it from an LCG would be about the same as expecting it for, say, Wings of War, or Happy Families. I just don't see the LCG as having the same method and market as the CCG, and as a player I'm not sure I should be that bothered about the marketing strategy of the games.

As a last point, I don't think that these games have the power to call out sanctioned storyline events - they're licensed properties, and I can't see Games Workshop (particularly - of the three games - Games Workshop) letting FFG run around tinkering with storylines in their world.



#17 JerusalemJones

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:24 PM

The current "storylines" for Warhammer don't so much influence the future of the Warhammer line, but what cards are going to see print in the lcg. Just like the storylines for Game of Thrones don't influence Martin's books, just which cards are printed, and which houses/factions have access to them.



#18 FangsFirst

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 06:56 PM

Yup, the only way they'll have players really be able to affect a story is if they use an IP they own or create. It would be cool though, it's the thing I like 3rd best about L5R.



#19 vermillian

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 02:08 PM

there is also the concept of GW not allowing ANY fiction being written that isn't theirs... so those little stories and story arcs they have in CoC will NOT work for W:I as GW probably WILL NOT allow any literature to be written and sold in another product.






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