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Engine Room Question?


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#1 missjade

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:52 AM

When a player activates the Engine Room location to increase the jump preparation track, does it automatically move up one, or does it only move up an "extra" one IF there is a jump preparation "Icon" on the crisis card that is drawn?

 

 

 



#2 Kushiel

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:19 AM

Neither. It does what it says on the board: Treat the next Crisis card drawn this turn as if it had a "prepare for jump" icon. In other words, when you get to the prepare for jump phase of the turn (after resolving the main body of the crisis and the activate cylons step), you increase the jump track by one, regardless of whether or not there's an actual jump icon printed on the card.



#3 missjade

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:24 AM

 In other words if the crisis card DOES have a prepare for jump icon you get to move up TWICE on the jump drive., or did you waste your action because the crisis card DID have a prepare for jump icon?...sorry i dont think i explained properly.  This is the fight our play group is having, if you get to move the prep up once or twice if there is an icon on the crisis card, and if you activate the engine room.



#4 napoleonWilson

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:39 PM

No,...sadly you are only permitted to move the jump track one space.  So, if someone uses their action to use the engine room and the crisis has a jump icon on it, then yes....the action would be considered a waste and the jump track would still only advance one spot.

Sorry, I know it stinks,...thats why we hardly ever use the engine room.

Hope this helps....

Napoleon



#5 risner

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 04:15 AM


missjade said:

 In other words if the crisis card DOES have a prepare for jump icon you get to move up TWICE on the jump drive., or did you waste your action because the crisis card DID have a prepare for jump icon?

You only every move it up one space.  If the card had a jump prep, you wasted your action in the engine room.  If it didn't have a jump prep, then you act as if it did.



#6 hobbes27

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:36 AM

I have a rules question regarding the Engine Room.

 

Suppose the human player activates the Engine Room by discarding treachery and a cylon player plays Sabotage and the Engine Room gets damaged, does the Engine Room action still happen?  Obvioulsy the human player goes to sick bay.  



#7 dwightsboardgame

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:33 AM

hobbes27 said:

I have a rules question regarding the Engine Room.

 

Suppose the human player activates the Engine Room by discarding treachery and a cylon player plays Sabotage and the Engine Room gets damaged, does the Engine Room action still happen?  Obvioulsy the human player goes to sick bay.  

That is a very good question.  I don't see anything in the official or unofficial FAQ regarding it.

The damage location text simply says, "Characters may move into a damaged location, but may not use the action listed on it (until repaired by an engineering card)."

The closet ruling regarding the timing of Sabotage is probably when moving from ship-to-ship.

Q: If a character discards a Treachery card to move to another game board, and a Cylon uses Sabotage, and the location he is moving to is damaged, what happens?
A: (Corey, FFG, to infocynic) The correct order is: Discard with intent to move -> Sabotage -> Damage Galactica -> Moves player to location. Thus, the player arrives in the damaged location but is not sent to sickbay. If the location the character is moving FROM is damaged, the player winds up in sickbay instead.

Given that, I would say that cards are discarded with the intent to activate the engine room. The engine room gets damaged so it doesn't get used. It's not easy being human.



#8 Anacreon

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

Agreed. It's like you went to the engine room and pulled a lever to make you jump, but there was a bomb on that line and it blew you up.  So, no jump, and you get carted off to the sickbay.

Also agreed, the engine room simply assures a jump, it does not add a jump to a jump icon if it happens to turn up.



#9 Mephisto666

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

I think I am disagreeing… but not pulling out the rules to do so… haha…

Damage prevents you from using the location after it is damaged.  If you are discarding, you have already used the action, you are just paying the cost…  it does not retroactively cancel the action. 

I think the better question would be if Roslin discards two cards so she can use an action, does that happen before the action she is going to use.  I would have to review the wording. I THINK it is to the effect that when she uses an action she has to discard, ergo the action is happening.

The timing guide in the latest "unoffical faq" may also have an answer.  I await Holy Outlaws input.

The engine room is useful when you NEED to get that jump.  If you want to be sure you jump that turn, or setting up the following player (Gaeta/Helo especially) to try an early jump.  Usually its because you need to clear the board of Cylons!  Haha. 



#10 dwightsboardgame

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:33 AM

Mephisto666 said:

I think I am disagreeing… but not pulling out the rules to do so… haha…

Damage prevents you from using the location after it is damaged.  If you are discarding, you have already used the action, you are just paying the cost…  it does not retroactively cancel the action. 

I think the better question would be if Roslin discards two cards so she can use an action, does that happen before the action she is going to use.  I would have to review the wording. I THINK it is to the effect that when she uses an action she has to discard, ergo the action is happening.

The timing guide in the latest "unoffical faq" may also have an answer.  I await Holy Outlaws input.

The engine room is useful when you NEED to get that jump.  If you want to be sure you jump that turn, or setting up the following player (Gaeta/Helo especially) to try an early jump.  Usually its because you need to clear the board of Cylons!  Haha. 

From a letter of the law interpretation of the rules, I agree 100% with what you say. It matches what Coltsfan76 says on BGG regarding sabotage during ship-to-ship movement, but the eventual ruling went the other way. It's really a discard with intent. In addition, for thematic reasons mentioned by Anacreon I can accept that it doesn't occur.

I would also like to hear what Holy Outlaws and other veterans have to say.



#11 dwightsboardgame

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:41 AM

I'm all for pulling out the rule book.

I'll make the claim that the regarding the locatio's text, when sabotage occurs and the location becomes damged it's

"Discard 2 Skill cards…"

Then sabotage interrupts the action as the cards are discarded and then the location is now damaged.  This brings us to the quote I had before:

"Characters may move into a damaged location, but may not use the action listed on it (until repaired by an engineering card)."

Since the location is now damaged, the character may no longer use it resulting in the overall effect of:

"Discard 2 Skill cards to treat the next Crisis Card drawn this turn as if it had a 'prepare for jump' icon."



#12 Skowza

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:08 PM

This could go either way but I'm leaning toward Mephisto's answer. 
When you discarded the cards to use the action you were legally allowed to do so, damaging the ER after you've paid the cost shouldnt then prevent the resolution of the effect from taking place.



#13 Skowza

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:25 PM

dwightsboardgame said:

The closet ruling regarding the timing of Sabotage is probably when moving from ship-to-ship.

Q: If a character discards a Treachery card to move to another game board, and a Cylon uses Sabotage, and the location he is moving to is damaged, what happens?
A: (Corey, FFG, to infocynic) The correct order is: Discard with intent to move -> Sabotage -> Damage Galactica -> Moves player to location. Thus, the player arrives in the damaged location but is not sent to sickbay. If the location the character is moving FROM is damaged, the player winds up in sickbay instead.

Given that, I would say that cards are discarded with the intent to activate the engine room. The engine room gets damaged so it doesn't get used. It's not easy being human.

Discarding when moving between ships can't really be compared to activating the Engine Room.  We're not looking at a (Discard with intent to Activate Location -> Sabotage -> Damage Galactica) situation because the action itself is causing you to discard cards.



#14 dwightsboardgame

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:41 PM

Have you read the wording in the original manual regarding ship-to-ship movement?



#15 Mephisto666

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

The distinction I was making (which I think most got) is that with the engine room, you have already used the action.  Thus, the action being available afterwards does not effect it already having been taken (wow, that like time traveler speak).

When moving… you discard BEFORE you move.  So the sabotage occurs before and could take a location out of service.

Thus, my Roslin "discard two card to activate a location" - her discard would be BEFORE the location "action" as used. 

With engine room, the action is already taken, then it would be out of comission, so the action completes. 



#16 hobbes27

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:18 AM

Mephisto666 said:

The distinction I was making (which I think most got) is that with the engine room, you have already used the action.  Thus, the action being available afterwards does not effect it already having been taken (wow, that like time traveler speak).

When moving… you discard BEFORE you move.  So the sabotage occurs before and could take a location out of service.

Thus, my Roslin "discard two card to activate a location" - her discard would be BEFORE the location "action" as used. 

With engine room, the action is already taken, then it would be out of comission, so the action completes. 

But don't you discard a card to catch a transport to another ship?      So at the end of your movement phase, which is powered by the discard, you arrive at a damaged location.

When you discard to activate the engine room, you could use a similar logic.     You discard a card to activate the engine room.   But at the end of the action, the engine room is damaged, so it doesn't work.    At the time you were fueling the engine room, it seemed to work, but upon completion it didn't.   Similar to what happens with ship to ship movement.    You took a ship to a location that you thought was functional, but it turns out it wasn't.    Both ship to ship movement and the engine room are options being powered by the discards.

Now I also do see the argument that you spent the cards to perform the action so the action takes place, but then there is a big mishap in the engine room.

So I don't see a clear cut answer here and have a feeling there isn't one unless someone official speaks up about it.

With Roslyn, I am trying to remember how her disadvantage is worded.   But I'm more inclined to say that there is two steps here.   First step she discards to activate a location.    Second step she activates the location.    Which would put her in sick bay and she wouldn't do the actual engine room activation.    But I don't recall that being clarified anywhere either.

 

 



#17 Mephisto666

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:08 AM

hobbes27 said:

When you discard to activate the engine room.

Ahhh… but its activate engine room, discard two cards…  ergo my "the action already happened and completes" (Like movement).  If it was "discard two cards, you may use an action to …" then I would so no luck. 

I don't like using TV logic for game play (or you could not use Command to launch if hanger bay damages!) but you could say… the machine was activated ,a nd you used your skills (and it worked), but the sabotage caused the device to overload (after it worked) and caused it to be damaged.  Oh my.  What have I done?

 



#18 dwightsboardgame

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

Mephisto666 said:

 

The distinction I was making (which I think most got) is that with the engine room, you have already used the action.  Thus, the action being available afterwards does not effect it already having been taken (wow, that like time traveler speak).

When moving… you discard BEFORE you move.  So the sabotage occurs before and could take a location out of service.

Thus, my Roslin "discard two card to activate a location" - her discard would be BEFORE the location "action" as used. 

With engine room, the action is already taken, then it would be out of comission, so the action completes. 

 

 

Without a doubt sabotage would send Roslin to sickbay and the location would be damaged before any action took place because the wording for Terminal Illness is, "In order to activate a location, you must first discard 2 Skill Cards."

My point is that when I read the rules, it isn't clear to me that one performs the discard before the move. From page 10:

"If he moves to a different ship, he must discard one Skill Card from his hand."

The wording doesn't indicate before. If they wanted to indicate they should have said "he must first discard" just like the Terminal Illness text. However, should or not, the ruling that shows that they did mean for it to happen before. As a result I think the same would be said for the engine room.



#19 Mephisto666

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

Oh…  I think I see what you are getting at and its a good point. 

(without the rules clarification)….  Intent to move, declare moving to other ship, discard trechery, sabotage (interupts and) damages your current (starting) space, you move to sickbay, now you complete your movement phase to the destination earlier declared. 

In the (unofficial) BGG FAQ, FF said that you would "wind up in sickbay instead", which seems to be a redirect of your movement, not an interupt of the phase. 

Back to Engine Room question, you alread took the action and paid the cost.  Though you are moved to sickbay, there is nothing "further" you had to do at the engine room location.  Your turn did not suddenly end (such are reveal or execution), you could use your second action if you had an XO for example. 

I would still stick with saying the action is somehow interupted or negated is reading something into the rules that is not explicit.  Using an action and paying the cost is the rule.  There is not a requirement to "remain at the location", on to be there to initially use the action.

Back to wrapping presents!

 



#20 Mephisto666

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

dwightsboardgame said:

I would also like to hear what Holy Outlaws and other veterans have to say.

For what it is worth, I saw Holy Outlaw this weekend and he agreed.

Engine Room - if it is damaged by a sabotage that occurred due to the discard from activating it, it still goes off.

Roslyn - if a place is damaged by a sabotage that occurred due to the discards used so that she can activate that place, she ends up in sick bay and the the place is not activated.

(I know, as if we still care about this one!)

 






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