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Servants of Glaaki, Vortex Spaces and Dunwich Horror track


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#1 rgalvan

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 11:47 AM

If a Servant of Glaaki enters a vortex space, is the terror level raised and Dunwich Horror token added to the track ?

I would say no, because the Servant is not returned to the cup but it is placed on Glaki, but I'm not sure ...

What do you think ?



#2 thorgrim

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:00 PM

The general consensus I have seen is that Spawn monsters are considered too powerful to be affected by such things and would thus not move into the vortex.

 

If you did want them to enter vortexes though, I would rule that they count as two tokens worth, to offset removing such a powerful creature from the board. Basically the Dunwich Horror eating a Servant of Glaaki is going to give him a lot more power than eating a cultist would.



#3 Avi_dreader

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 01:17 PM

thorgrim said:

The general consensus I have seen is that Spawn monsters are considered too powerful to be affected by such things and would thus not move into the vortex.

 

If you did want them to enter vortexes though, I would rule that they count as two tokens worth, to offset removing such a powerful creature from the board. Basically the Dunwich Horror eating a Servant of Glaaki is going to give him a lot more power than eating a cultist would.

 

Is that the general consensus?  If it is, I disagree with it.  As far as I'm concerned, there's no indication anywhere that spawn monsters shouldn't be able to move into vortexes.



#4 thorgrim

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 01:55 PM

Well, the Vortex Spaces rules on pg7 of the Dunwich book state that  "Any monster that enters a vortex is immediately returned to the cup." Since Spawn monsters do not return to the cup, it could be argued that such spaces do not affect them, and since there is no way to move out of that space once there, they potentially would not move into that space.

 

While it could also be argued that you would just return the Spawn to the GOO sheet, I think both Glaaki and Abhoth would be better served by not having their Spawn removed from the board if in Dunwich (although I don't know if any other GOO's have Spawn, I only have Dunwich so far).



#5 ColtsFan76

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 02:34 PM

Spawn monsters are generally above other effects, like Monster Limits and gate closures.  But in this case, I think they would go through the Vortex and end up back on Glaaki.  Follow the procedure as if they were normal Monsters.



#6 jhaelen

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:54 PM

ColtsFan76 said:

Spawn monsters are generally above other effects, like Monster Limits and gate closures.  But in this case, I think they would go through the Vortex and end up back on Glaaki.  Follow the procedure as if they were normal Monsters.
I agree.

However I think this should also apply to cards, spells, etc. that tell you to return monsters to the monster cup.

It has been argued that these effects would not affect spawn monsters, but I disagree.

Imho, whenever an effect tells you to return monsters to the monster cup it will affect spawn monsters but they are returned to the AO instead.



#7 MrsGamura

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:55 AM

 I like Colt's interpretation but False on the guy above me Feeds Raid Arkham does not return spawn monsters. This example is in the FAQ.

DW Vortex is a special case because if they where not removed they would be in limbo next to the Vortex.



#8 Arborshate

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:25 AM

I would have thought that "return <monster> to the cup" means "remove <monster> from the board, and this does not count as a kill".  So, spawn monsters would go to wherever they go when they're killed (back to their starting places for most, but removed from the game for riots).  

Alternatively, you could just have it such that, when spawn monsters in Dunwich move, if they would move to a vortex, they instead move into the space that has the opposite-colored arrow pointing toward the currently-occupied space. 



#9 ColtsFan76

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 10:45 AM

jhaelen said:

ColtsFan76 said:

Spawn monsters are generally above other effects, like Monster Limits and gate closures.  But in this case, I think they would go through the Vortex and end up back on Glaaki.  Follow the procedure as if they were normal Monsters.

I agree.

 

However I think this should also apply to cards, spells, etc. that tell you to return monsters to the monster cup.

It has been argued that these effects would not affect spawn monsters, but I disagree.

Imho, whenever an effect tells you to return monsters to the monster cup it will affect spawn monsters but they are returned to the AO instead.

As Mrs Gamura pointed out, the cards that say to remove monsters has specifically been answered by Kevin.  Spawn monsters are only removed if defeated.

The only reason that I suggest Vortices are exempt is because they create a situation that would require even more clarification.  If they get stuck, then there is no defeatign them whatsoever.  And they are meant to be defeated.  And since Investigators can't enete a Vortex, then they would be in a permanent sort of Outskirts.

But on the other hand, maybe Kevin intended them to get stuck in Vortices and therefore harkin Glakki to awaken that much quicker.  This may be the preference since Servants of Glaaki and Vortices were introduced in the same expansion, I have to assume this was encountered in playtesting (it's not like two features from two different expansions that might have been overlooked).  So it's very possible that they are meant to get stuck, bring about the awakening of Glaaki that much faster, and pump up the Terror track.

So I can see a case made either way, I think it would just be "cleaner" to follow the first point.  But that is just an opinion.



#10 Fecktor

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 03:40 PM

As far as I see it, it's pretty easy.  If a Spawn Monster has to move following an arrow into a Dunwich Vortex, it will do so (there's nothing anywhere in the rules preventing normal Spawn Monster movement at that point...  even Kingsport's Rifts would move into a Vortex).  Once in the Vortex location, since it is immune to being sent back to the cup by any means besides being defeated in combat, it'll stay there.  No Dunwich Horror token will be added, the Terror level won't be raised, and that Spawn Monster will sit there for a long time...  (unless something happens like the "Milk of Shub-Niggurath" or the "Lure Monster" spell...).



#11 Dam

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:32 PM

Fecktor said:

As far as I see it, it's pretty easy.  If a Spawn Monster has to move following an arrow into a Dunwich Vortex, it will do so (there's nothing anywhere in the rules preventing normal Spawn Monster movement at that point...  even Kingsport's Rifts would move into a Vortex).  Once in the Vortex location, since it is immune to being sent back to the cup by any means besides being defeated in combat, it'll stay there.  No Dunwich Horror token will be added, the Terror level won't be raised, and that Spawn Monster will sit there for a long time...  (unless something happens like the "Milk of Shub-Niggurath" or the "Lure Monster" spell...).

IIRC, Milk specifically states "all non-Spawn".


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#12 Fecktor

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:56 PM

Good catch!  You're right, I didn't remember that... I was just thinking of ways to move monsters and the Milk came to mind :)  So that leaves only the Lure Monster spell and... maybe some other way I don't know about.






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