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The ubiquitous SPACE MARINE thread...


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#1 Wu Ming

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 07:50 AM

What kind of bolters do they use, can they bench a Sister of Battle, are they human, abhuman, something more than human, prick them do they not bleed, wrong them will they not revenge, are they all psychotic, mindless killing drones, are they not l337!1 w0071!!, can they be roleplayed? Can a thousand Dark Eldar with a thousand Splinter Rifles and a Thousand Years wound one?

Here is the place for all things Space Marine!!! No Dark Hersy Forum would be complete without it.



#2 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 08:35 AM

About damn time.

And Ill say this again.

IG and DE can kill a SM its just unlikely.

Fix it Ross.



#3 Nile

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:18 AM

So why are there no rulles for playing SM in DH?



#4 Evilscary

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:27 AM

SPESS MEHREENS!!11!

FOR TEH EMPRAH!!!121!!

 

Raaaaagh!



#5 kennetten

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:29 AM

Because that would make Deathwatch much less interesting now, wouldn`t it?



#6 Wilfred Owen

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:36 AM

Nile said:

So why are there no rulles for playing SM in DH?

Because they are too powerful.  Either everyone would want to play one, or whoever was the Space Marine in the group would become the hero.  Plus, I can imagine that players wanting to play SM characters would start demanding the power armour and weapons - resulting in powergaming. 



#7 Nuttunen

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:49 AM

So um...   How do you even (role)play a über brainwashed (at least 90 decrees celsius) gene-manipulated 3 meters tall heap of ugly muscle, wielding the most powerful arms and armor known to mankind? Land in a drop-pod, shoot the crap out of stuff, lift cultists up from their hair and spit their faces off...? Then prance around saying prayers and get home in time for tea & mind clensing.



#8 Wu Ming

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:50 AM

Nile said:

So why are there no rulles for playing SM in DH?

There is ThePatriot's co-authored endevour, I think it may be at Unearthed Apocrapha or you can also nab it here. They are 'un-offical' but rules none-the-less.



#9 Wu Ming

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:53 AM

Wilfred Owen said:

Nile said:

 

So why are there no rulles for playing SM in DH?

 

 

Because they are too powerful.  Either everyone would want to play one, or whoever was the Space Marine in the group would become the hero.  Plus, I can imagine that players wanting to play SM characters would start demanding the power armour and weapons - resulting in powergaming. 

Yeah because that's not an issue with say... *looks around for Lynata* Sisters of Battle.



#10 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:38 AM

Wu Ming said:

So why are there no rulles for playing SM in DH? Because they are too powerful.  Either everyone would want to play one, or whoever was the Space Marine in the group would become the hero.  Plus, I can imagine that players wanting to play SM characters would start demanding the power armour and weapons - resulting in powergaming. 

 

 

Yeah because that's not an issue with say... *looks around for Lynata* Sisters of Battle.

I so hope you have Dodge +20



#11 Kage2020

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 11:22 AM

Wilfred Owen said:

Because they are too powerful.  Either everyone would want to play one, or whoever was the Space Marine in the group would become the hero.  Plus, I can imagine that players wanting to play SM characters would start demanding the power armour and weapons - resulting in powergaming. 

Why does everyone automatically assume that just because they might be available, everyone wants to play a Space Marine?  Or that even if they do want to play a Space Marine, they're going to go around power-gaming?

Also, why are they any less RP-worthy than, say, a psyker?  Or a zealot priest?  Or an Inquisitor?

Seems to me that one of the iconic images of the 40k universe, one that GW have gone to the ends of the Earth to make more human are getting somewhat of a bad press.  

Kage



#12 Wilfred Owen

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:16 PM

Kage2020 said:

Wilfred Owen said:

 

Because they are too powerful.  Either everyone would want to play one, or whoever was the Space Marine in the group would become the hero.  Plus, I can imagine that players wanting to play SM characters would start demanding the power armour and weapons - resulting in powergaming. 

 

 

Why does everyone automatically assume that just because they might be available, everyone wants to play a Space Marine?  Or that even if they do want to play a Space Marine, they're going to go around power-gaming?

Also, why are they any less RP-worthy than, say, a psyker?  Or a zealot priest?  Or an Inquisitor?

Seems to me that one of the iconic images of the 40k universe, one that GW have gone to the ends of the Earth to make more human are getting somewhat of a bad press.  

Kage

 

Kage2020, I'm not saying that they are any less roleplay worthy than any other career - and if I implied that in an earlier post, than I was in error.  But the fact remains that Space Marines are simply too imbalaced compared to the careers presented in DH.  I do not deny that they are the most iconic element of the 40k universe - certainly, that is what the sales figures say - but SMs simply cannot be included, in my opinion, with what we have at the moment.  Of course, more mature player groups could accommodate a SM player character easily; however, not every group is like that.  I guess, that's why DH never included SMs. 



#13 Kage2020

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:55 PM

Now that was a post that was most tempered, especially given how one could see my own comments as critical of your original post.  I just love it when the forumites work as we should!

Wilfred Owen said:

Kage2020, I'm not saying that they are any less roleplay worthy than any other career - and if I implied that in an earlier post, than I was in error.

I don't think that you did.  However, this thread was generated in angst by Wu Ming because he was peeved that people were organically developing his thread on the recent podcast.  Thus I believe it was my picking up on some of the general "sense" of posts that are posted on this matter.  My bad for that, so my apologies.

Wilfred Owen said:

But the fact remains that Space Marines are simply too imbalaced compared to the careers presented in DH.

Are you sure?  Although I'm (seriously) not a fan of ThePatriot's efforts at Space Marines, s/he presents an approach to Space Marines that basically "balances them out" at about - what? - level 5?

So, why do you feel that they are so un-balanced with regards to the Dark Heresy?  Obviously if one goes purely with the focus of the game ("Cassocks in Space" investigative horror) then it isn't going to work, but if one is to argue that Dark Heresy is 40k RPG, or at least the "Tier 1" basis of it?  Well, that might be a more palatable question...

Wilfred Owen said:

Of course, more mature player groups could accommodate a SM player character easily; however, not every group is like that.  I guess, that's why DH never included SMs. 

Forgive me for jumping on this, but are you suggesting tthat Dark Heresy was designed for immature players?  

Kage



#14 aethel

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:26 PM

Kage2020 said:

 

Why does everyone automatically assume that just because they might be available, everyone wants to play a Space Marine?  Or that even if they do want to play a Space Marine, they're going to go around power-gaming?

Also, why are they any less RP-worthy than, say, a psyker?  Or a zealot priest?  Or an Inquisitor?

1) Because they were way too much beloved by the kind of people who wanted to play the dragon in D&D?    In all seriousness, I am sure there are a lot of people who would do a fine job with them, when contained in the appropriate game and setting / power level for them (as already eloquently articulated by others in this thread).

2) As far as RP-worthy, well that's in the eye of the beholder.  I have 0 interest in playing one.  The wiggle room I would have to work with to develop backstory and personality would not allow me to develop the kind of character I like to play.  But I feel the same way about Sororitas.  That doesn't mean either one shouldn't be developed as a playable character in a game appropriate to their power level, just that I personally don't want to play one.

Some of my fellow players in the group where I play will be waiting anxiously for years to see Deathwatch come out.  I only hope when it does, there will be options to play something else of comparable power level that is not a marine, because I would be bored playing one.  Lots of other people wouldn't.



#15 SlimeTheGreat

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 07:31 AM

Well I think playing space marines would be fun but I also think that a space marine player would get bored in an Acolyte group. In one of mine at least.


My quests are investigation based. No matter how hard he tries, sending a space marine in an investigation team (say in a suspected noble social circle or a bar in the slums or whatever like that) is aquin to sending a mad elephant inside a porcelain shop, with fireworks in it's ass. 
The big guy is BIG, he's packing HUMONGOUS weapons and he's got easely recognisable modifications that mark him as on of the Astartes. 

So then what, 

The group goes of saying: ''Hey Lucretius, call you when we find them''  then proceed to finding the bad guys wich is whenn they finaly (after hours of play) call him in ''Yeah so we're here and so are they, do your thing ''.

Alright, ti makes for awesome ''space marine to the rescue FOR THE EMPRAAAA'' scenes but the space marine still had nothing to do for hours.


an interesting twist would be an All space marine group with one normal guy who is able to go and do sneaky stuff to ''prepare the way for the big guys'' wich would, ironicaly, make him the ONE unreplaceable character in the group.


Sorry for my spelling but i'm french

Also to the first guy who posted: nice shakespear reference.



#16 Wu Ming

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 07:31 AM

I lack the code saavy of Kage2020 so I am not even going to attempt to deal with the currently wonky quote system. A few quick points though:

I was less peevish at the threadjacking, which is to be expected in any forum and I think moreso in gaming forums were topics (like games) can ofetne quickly and unexpectedly veer off into uncharted and planned for terriotory (often to the enjoyment of all envoled.) But more to the tiresome (to me) and oft repeated 'Space Marine' um 'discourse' (?). Personally I am of the opinion that the concept that a majority of people have reagarding marines is completely incorrect. They are in my view no diffrent than a Psyker, Minostorium, Minotorium, Inquisition, Assassitorium, Mecnanicus or Soritas indoctronated individual all undergo various psycological and sometimes physical progroms intended to produce a very specif outcome as determined by the goals, views, and belifes / doctrines of a given orginisation.

Thi sis not to say that they are all the same in the level or degree of agumentiona and manipulatio applied but that they all basically set out to take a normal human (or psyker in the case of the Scolastic Psykana) and put them through the a preordainend process of indoctrnation and training and whatnot with the outcome being the idealised version of a person as outlined my the said orginisation.

However there seems to be a great deal of TT bagae I feel brough to the RPG table when it comes to Marines, and I really don't see why considering how often they can (and do loose) but that's besides the point. I think, maybe in part because they are so popular they get alot of backlash from those who want to be more 'original' or don't want to be a 'fanboi' ect. Marines seem to be the 'Sell Outs' of the Warhammer 40,000 univers to alot of fans as if they were that nice underground punk group you and mates 'discovered' at some seedy pub way back when and now they're on MTV and all the little kiddies think they're all the rave, and now you can't stand the bastards.

THAT's what my angst is about. That and the kind of assured and inevetable nature of the same basic 'revelations' and POVs about Marines (in specif to DH) occuring over and over through out the ages. That said I agree wit Kage202 regarding the 'Bad Press' angle and with aethel regarding Soritas and other DH 'character' types being no more or less Role Playable than another, although I think people cannot see, choose not to or just outright disagre on this point.

To me all of the Character options as presented by the the RAW for DH are esentially tropes with all the same baggae tying the hands of the player, however noone seems to have a problem with there Void Born or Mind Cleansed Psyker being just like the 100,000,000 other Psykers of the same background, same basic Statistical spreads same basic abilites ect. That is the true fruit of my 'angst' regarding this topic. That said, I still find myself (occasionally) reading the Space Marine or Las Vs. SP weapons or Human vs. Marine Bolter threads even though I am pretty sure I've read it all before (twice) in its varied incarnations.



#17 Wu Ming

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 09:19 AM

SlimeTheGreat said:

. ...
 

Also to the first guy who posted: nice shakespear reference.

Personally I perfer Ben Jonson to William Shakespear, but It seemed an apropriate addition.



#18 Kage2020

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:30 PM

aethel said:

Because they were way too much beloved by the kind of people who wanted to play the dragon in D&D? In all seriousness, I am sure there are a lot of people who would do a fine job with them, when contained in the appropriate game and setting / power level for them (as already eloquently articulated by others in this thread).

Indeed. This was really only the point that I was trying to make. I have played with people whom I feel hardly have the ability to RP a real human being...

aethel said:

As far as RP-worthy, well that's in the eye of the beholder. I have 0 interest in playing one. The wiggle room I would have to work with to develop backstory and personality would not allow me to develop the kind of character I like to play.

And now that is an argument I can understand. It's an argument based upon personal interpretation, rather than suggesting that it is not possible for anyone.

aethel said:

Please don't call me 'he.'

Fair enough. Way to go for breaking the gaming mould!

Wu Ming said:

I lack the code saavy of Kage2020 so I am not even going to attempt to deal with the currently wonky quote system.

All I do is go into the HTML code and then type the following: (blockquote)(b)Wu Ming said:(/b)(br /)(br /)some quoted text(/blockquote). It all works after that, but of course you have to replace the () with <>. 

Wu Ming said:

Personally I am of the opinion that the concept that a majority of people have reagarding marines is completely incorrect.

Which was indeed my point. Even a "normal human" in the 40k universe is going to be sufficiently different from post peoples' interpretations of reality that they're going to be very difficult to play.

Wu Ming said:

THAT's what my angst is about.

On my behalf, thank you for taking the time to articulate what I described as 'angst.' Much appreciated.

Kage



#19 Luddite

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:56 PM

Kage2020 said:

 

Which was indeed my point. Even a "normal human" in the 40k universe is going to be sufficiently different from post peoples' interpretations of reality that they're going to be very difficult to play.

 

 

This is such a depressingly obvious point to me, but is completely missed by DH.

The people of the 40k 'verse are simply going to be fundamentally different from us today.

Physically, morally, psychologically...and yet DH basically says, 'ok, they're just like you...um...except Medieval...in space.  Got it?  Good.  Now go kill stuff...'

Physically?

Well the average Imperial citizen sure isn't going to look European.  Given that High gothic was a fusion of Pacific languages and English, i'm thinking a wierd mix of Asian, and White.  Sort of coffee-skinned Polynesian looking...as a baseline.  Add in 1,000,000 differnet worlds and the endless environmentally inspired genetic mutation that will inspire...who knows?

Morally?

Its clear the average Imperial citizen has a fundamentally different moral compass...yet DH gives us NOTHING on that absolutely vital part of roleplaying a character in the Imperium.  I'm fond of the idea of an Imperial baseline, against which lots of local variations might be measured...but for sure that baseline isn't going to be much like modern Western liberal democratic values...

Psychologically?

Who knows?  I mean look at the environment the average Imperial citizen lives in!!  Surely we should be roleplay people like Winston Smith?  Or Lenina and Bernard?  I can't see many Imperial citizens being phycologically familiar to us today...yet, again, DH gives us nothing to work on in forming a 40k personality to roleplay...

Unless of course in 38,000 years of development of the like seen in the 40k background, Imperial citizens are essentially just the same as us...which i find incredibly unlikely....just look at the physical, moral and psychological changes between you and your grandparents...how different are they?

What about between a European and an African person?  Differences?

What about between us and the ancient Greeks or Romans?  Do we share the same morality as the Aztecs?

 

Hey!!  I derailed a SPESH MAAHRINE thread away from the marines!     Do i win a prize?



#20 Victus

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 04:11 PM

Nile said:

So why are there no rulles for playing SM in DH?

Because You can't Role play a Space MArine. You can only play it. The only thing he would do is to kill, kill, kill then kill again and kill and survive to all the interestings characters who would have brought life to the game. Isn't it? the goal is to play a ''normal'' human that can die in a sigle shot of a pistol. Because I think The goal of dark heresy is to play in a dark grimm atmosphere. WTF A space marine would do our of his chapter, working with vile acolytes? There is also the dark watch thing. wouldn't it be less interesting if there were space marine everywhere.

''No need the Inquisiton everyone! we got space meeriiinneees!''






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