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Rate the alternate end games!


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#1 crimhead

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 01:49 AM

I'd be interested to hear what everybody thinks of the various endings and why.  Here's what I want to see in an ending:

  • Player interaction
  • A chance for the runner (or runners) up
  • choices/dilemmas

So, my favorite rating in order:

  1. Danse Macabre.  This involves interaction with all the other players, it gives them potentially several turns to catch you, and introduces strategic choices in the selection of victims and the use of fate.
  2. Crown Of Command.  This also allows some catch up time.  It is interactive, but less so than DM.  There are no choices involved.
  3. Frost Queen.  Normally nobody will head for the win till they are a decent favourite against her.  There've always been times to head for the centre light (due to competitive reasons),  and this ending enhances that dilemma.  This is especially true  as a hidden ending cause it's the only ending which can bite you in the ass (can I say 'ass here?  We do have mules) when you arrive.  Fighting a boss monster generally doesn't interact with the players left behind, but does provide an interesting situation with another player on the CoC.  You don't always want to take her second last life, but throwing that battle (if possible) could result in turns lost (letting your opponent take two in a row).  This version grants at least four turns to catch up, but makes it easier now as you can chase the winner even if they are much stronger than you - as long as you have a chance against the Queen.
  4. Crown & Scepter.   Practically The Blood Bath ending.  No choice, no time, not much interaction as your opponents can't heal.
  5. Warlock Quests/Blood Bath.  Let's be clear.  I am rating the endings only.  You don't play Warlocks Quests for the ending - there is none.  You play Warlock Quests for the mid game.  I haven't played it yet, but I do think it's very cool!  The ending is anticlimactic, but that's worth it for the interesting changes on the rest of the game.  Repeat, I love warlock quests for the scenario, just not so much for it's conclusion.  The problem with Blood Bath is that the standard ending is quick enough that it won't save much time.  Not allowing players to restart would be interesting if winning by killing everyone (without the Command Spell) was a legitimate possibility, but I imagine that would be the exception.  The CoC ending with this version isn't much fun.

These endings are new, so my opinions could change.  In particular I could see coming to prefer Frost Queen over Crown Of Command.  I am going to the home brews section to suggest ways to incorporate WQ with hidden endings - check it out!

I'm thoroughly pleased with the ending options!  Though we could use another dangerous ending soon I hope!



#2 ameritrasher

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 02:08 AM

I like the warlock ending the best because the new quest cards are really cool. I like the idea that you have to keep working for the ending from the game's start to finish. The other endings you only get to do for a couple turns at the very end of the game. The warlock ending brings more adventure to the game and lets you screw over other people by making it harder for them to complete quests. I hope there are more endings like this in the next set but they don't have to work with warlock quests it can be something new.



#3 crimhead

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 02:21 AM

Hey AT, I like the WQs too, as you say because you work towards the ending all game.  But it's the working towards I like more the ending.  I should distinguish endgame (the game's conluding turns) vs ending (the variant cards).    I have changed the title.  I only labour this point to be crystal clear that I am not badmouthing WQ.  If I were rating ending cards and not just endgames, WQ would have scored much higher.

I am still interested to hear that WQ is your favourite though. 



#4 Velhart

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 02:44 AM

Nice topic !

My top 5 would be:

1 Ice Queen Ending

I have always like a endboss at the end. It's good that she have 4 lives too.

You have build yourself up, so you can defeat her in the end !

2 Warlock Ending

I really like this ending, even if i have not play with it yet.

Completing quests cards to win the game sounds very cool. You must focus on something else now, while leveling up in the game.

Even the strongest characters can still get stuck with a quest card, while a other player with a lower level can still win the game.

3 Danse Macabre

I like this card more than Crown and Sceptre.

With the Danse Macabre, nobody knows who will survive. Both players can die, if they roll a 1 or 2 if they are unlucky

This gives some excitement to the game. Also the Dice with Death gives more interaction between players.

4 Crown and Sceptre

This ending is a plus point vs the standard crown.

The player who is holding the scepter, can easily hit all his opponent without rolling the die.

This saves time, and the game ends faster ( no healing gains anymore)

5 Crown Of Command

The boring ending ever !

Only rolling a die to try to hit your opponent is very boring.

That player can do nothing else, while other players can draw cards, heal, and go on with the game.

The only excitement it has, is the pvp battle at the Crown, but that's not the reason( for me at least) why i am playing Talisman.

There are better endings

 



#5 JCHendee

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 03:44 AM

Of all of them, I give the Warlock Quest the top position. As with a discussion with Crimhead in the Homebrew section, it is the only one that picked up on what was missing from all other endgames of the past... doing something during the actual game instead of just the endgame.

While I do not care for the new quest cards, which have concepts that aren't really new, they do fit the modern players desire for a fast game.  When combined with the WQ, they do still provide something different from the standards of (1) the old Command spell, normally or with some fast kill variation, or (2) the uber-Enemy to defeat. (There are some other variations that work with random draw, but I'll leave those for another time.) These classes of endings are the most suitable for random draw, but the WQ steps beyond them.  Its endgame criteria is played out during actual play of the game, making the whole game more interesting instead of just the endgame.

Two thumbs up for this badly needed innovation in endgame ... or just game paradigms for Talisman, aside from any specifically designed endgame.



#6 Mattr0polis

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 03:45 AM

1. Crown of Command- I'm a sucker for classic ;)

2. Warlock Quests- This one is neat, as it's probably the most unique out of any of them. It should still encourage lots of interaction as people try to block the others from completing certain quests, or trying to kill people who are more fortunate at getting quests done quickly. Plus getting 4 quests done AND getting leveled up enough to make it to the center is still quite a feat.

3. Ice Queen- Also really cool (heh) and tough since you have to hit her 4 times, but end bosses will always make for a neat ending. I hope someday we get a Dragon ending too, so we can replicate the awesome base game box art!

4. Dance of Death- I really like this ending, my only worry is that it may take even LONGER to play a game with this variant than with the CoC, since you gotta go after each person individually & it's not even gauranteed to hurt that 1 person. Plus more people could die before the end game due to 1 & 2 equalling dead when Death lands on you normally. Still very awesome though.

5. Crown & Scepter- I like this one since it sticks with the classic crown roots, but doesn't really give much time for others to challenge for the win. Once someone gets to the Crown, you are pretty much done unless you are already in the Inner Region, or unless two people get there & fight over it, buying you some time. I guess that's not really different from the Warlock Quests or possibly Ice Queen ones though, and I guess you just gotta try & hurt/kill the people who are doing the best loong before they are moving in to the Inner Region. Could make for some more brutal PvP games in that case.

 



#7 ameritrasher

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 04:35 AM

Mattr0polis said:

Crown & Scepter- I like this one since it sticks with the classic crown roots, but doesn't really give much time for others to challenge for the win. Once someone gets to the Crown, you are pretty much done unless you are already in the Inner Region, or unless two people get there & fight over it, buying you some time. I guess that's not really different from the Warlock Quests or possibly Ice Queen ones though, and I guess you just gotta try & hurt/kill the people who are doing the best loong before they are moving in to the Inner Region. Could make for some more brutal PvP games in that case.

The transportation spell that switches players on the crown is really nasty if you play with this ending. Swithing spaces with someone on the regular crown of command isn't that bad because players get enough turns to catch up unless they get really lucky casting the command spell. The crown and scepter will kill you off before you make it if you're starting from the portal of power. This was the random ending card picked last game and I almost made it to the crown and knocked the other player off.



#8 Velhart

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 04:42 AM

ameritrasher said:

Mattr0polis said:

 

Crown & Scepter- I like this one since it sticks with the classic crown roots, but doesn't really give much time for others to challenge for the win. Once someone gets to the Crown, you are pretty much done unless you are already in the Inner Region, or unless two people get there & fight over it, buying you some time. I guess that's not really different from the Warlock Quests or possibly Ice Queen ones though, and I guess you just gotta try & hurt/kill the people who are doing the best loong before they are moving in to the Inner Region. Could make for some more brutal PvP games in that case.

 

 

The transportation spell that switches players on the crown is really nasty if you play with this ending. Swithing spaces with someone on the regular crown of command isn't that bad because players get enough turns to catch up unless they get really lucky casting the command spell. The crown and scepter will kill you off before you make it if you're starting from the portal of power. This was the random ending card picked last game and I almost made it to the crown and knocked the other player off.

indeed.

If i play with this ending, i can better try to get that transference spell.

Hopefully, i will draw demi god..



#9 Dam

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 06:09 AM

Velhart said:

indeed.

If i play with this ending, i can better try to get that transference spell.

Hopefully, i will draw demi god..

And someone else plays Gypsy ...


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#10 Velhart

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 06:26 AM

Dam said:

 

Velhart said:

indeed.

 

If i play with this ending, i can better try to get that transference spell.

Hopefully, i will draw demi god..

 

 

And someone else plays Gypsy ...

 

 

Then i need Counter spell too



#11 Militarywizard

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 10:06 AM

1. Frost Queen

2. Crown of Command

3. Danse Macabre

4.Crown and Scepter

5. Warlock Quests



#12 crimhead

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:06 AM

Velhart said:

Dam said:

 

Velhart said:

indeed.

 

If i play with this ending, i can better try to get that transference spell.

Hopefully, i will draw demi god..

 

 

And someone else plays Gypsy ...

 

 

Then i need Counter spell too

Won't she just take your discarded counterspell and play it back at you? 



#13 Dam

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:12 AM

crimhead said:

 

Won't she just take your discarded counterspell and play it back at you? 

I think it comes down to timing and when spells hits the discard. In this case, I think it goes:

Transference cast, Counter Spell cast, no more spells, so now they both hit the discard.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#14 Velhart

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 02:14 AM

crimhead said:

 

Velhart said:

 

Dam said:

 

Velhart said:

indeed.

 

If i play with this ending, i can better try to get that transference spell.

Hopefully, i will draw demi god..

 

 

And someone else plays Gypsy ...

 

 

Then i need Counter spell too

 

 

Won't she just take your discarded counterspell and play it back at you? 

 

 

That's right.

As Dam said, it depends on the timing.

i play transference. the gypsy take the transference spell, and plays it back at you, then i cast counter spell end of turn etc

But if the gypsy takes the transference spell and do nothing, then it goes this, if she has 2 spell cards at the start of her turn

Gypsy cast transference in her turn, i counter the spell,  gypsy take the counterspell, and cast it back.. then she can still cast transference..

Gypsy is really nasty 



#15 JCHendee

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 03:01 PM

There is one problem with the ratings in here.  When you get right down to it, the WQ isn't an endgame; it's and alternative "game."  Than in itself is what appeals to me, as I've already played similar endgames to the others over the last twenty years.  A.T. partially point to this, though not completely. Rating the Warlock Quests with other endgames is a bit of apples and oranges. They may both be sweet fruits, but they have entirely different natures.

And has anyone thought to try playing the WQ with another endgame waiting at CoC?



#16 Tons-Home-rules

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:35 PM

JCHendee said:

 

There is one problem with the ratings in here.  When you get right down to it, the WQ isn't an endgame; it's and alternative "game."  Than in itself is what appeals to me, as I've already played similar endgames to the others over the last twenty years.  A.T. partially point to this, though not completely. Rating the Warlock Quests with other endgames is a bit of apples and oranges. They may both be sweet fruits, but they have entirely different natures.

And has anyone thought to try playing the WQ with another endgame waiting at CoC?

 


 

 

I play the WQ as a hidden ending.  i.e. get your 4 WQ the old fashioned way = Land on the Cave and do them.  Ending isn't WQ?  You wasted your time.  It is?  Hope you did it, otherwise, you gotta go back.

I'm very happy that the backs of the Quest cards are identical.   The extra "revealed" icon is on the actual quest side.  Unless it gets crazy, I'm going to keep any new / upcoming expansions' "revealed" endings hidden, and just tell the players what they are.  They don't want to bother?  Np.  Might be a non "have to prep" ending.  They prep for nothing?  Their call.  Allows for longer games.

The people I play with aren't fond of "CoC rushers" and we do 5-8 hour games, split over 2-4 days, going to the CoC with 15+ all stats, usually 20.  (I know.  Dam is probably having an aneurism right now, due respect).  I don't think the dwarf has even lasted more than 10-15 min as that's a rallying cry to "KILL THE QUICK ENDER!" resounding through the land, heh.  Ditto for any new quick ending characters that might pop up (I suspect the O.C. won't live long either).

But, for us, "hidden" WQ ending works.  There are so many ways to get a Talisman, till Frostmarch, no-one ever bothered doing the WQs before, and, using a home variant of WQ trades for Treasure Cards (needs 8, see other thread http://www.fantasyfl...=1&efidt=124850 ), WQ are back in the mix.

Might work for you, but, be sure any newbies know it's a home rule, so their Talisman experience isn't affected when they play with others.



#17 Dam

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 08:38 PM

Tons-Home-rules said:

I play the WQ as a hidden ending.  i.e. get your 4 WQ the old fashioned way = Land on the Cave and do them.  Ending isn't WQ?  You wasted your time.  It is?  Hope you did it, otherwise, you gotta go back.

How do you go back? Once there, according to the rules, can't leave (Transference might bump you out).


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#18 Cidervampire

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 04:08 AM

I'm yet to play Frostmarch but I did notice that the way you attack the Ice Queen can lead to some cards being extremely powerful.  Cards that let you add to your strength or craft until the end of the turn are a massive bonus in this sort of circumstances.

I've been playing for a year or so with my own conversions of the 2nd ed endings and to prevent cards such as Brainwave being too powerful I ruled either that there was one attack per turn and that all the other players missed their turns until the combat had concluded.  This solution ensured that one off effects couldn't be used to tip the odds too much when using the ending cards.

Geoff



#19 crimhead

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:48 AM

JCHendee said:

 

There is one problem with the ratings in here.  When you get right down to it, the WQ isn't an endgame; it's and alternative "game." 

Indeed it is.  I rated it low for the purpose of this discussion because the ending for WQ is not very exciting.  I love WQ for the alternative game, but I was interested in discussing endings in particular.

JCHendee said:

 

And has anyone thought to try playing the WQ with another endgame waiting at CoC?

 

 

Well, yes.  I posted a thread to that effect in the homebrews section.  You commented.

http://www.fantasyfl...=1&efidt=229883



#20 Tons-Home-rules

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:50 AM

 

 

 

Dam said:

 

Tons-Home-rules said:

I play the WQ as a hidden ending.  i.e. get your 4 WQ the old fashioned way = Land on the Cave and do them.  Ending isn't WQ?  You wasted your time.  It is?  Hope you did it, otherwise, you gotta go back.

 

How do you go back? Once there, according to the rules, can't leave (Transference might bump you out).

 

 

Sorry, I must have mentioned it in the other thread.

It's yet another house rule that you can turn back.  Yes, we have a lot of house rules.

The reason we put "can turn back" on any ending with a star, (which is, again, against the actual rules, as you rightfully point out), is that...

As we can tell, any ending with a star icon is because you have to "prep" for it.  It actually alters the game play.  The other endings (those that can be hidden) can be a "show up and see".  But, presumably, the revealed ones, since they break / change a major part of gameplay, "have" to be revealed because you have to have something ready or done before getting to the center.  Case in point...

You have to have 4 completed Warlock Quests to win.  But, in a normal game, unless you obtained and lost 4 talismans, there's no reason at all to have 4 Quests done.  So, the official rule is, that ending has to be revealed so that people can know they have to collect WQ to win.

But, me, my wife and my friends really like long games.  (It was a disappointment that we finished one in a single 4 hours sitting last night, but that's another story.)  And we thought... hey, if we do the house rule that even WQ ending is hidden, means people may, or may not, take longer doing 4 potentially useless WQ.

Then, we thought, hey, with a hidden ending WQ, you could be "stranded" at the CoC if you just went there hoping to draw a different card.  So, we allowed the home rule that, if you get to the center, and can't finish the ending (which currently, only applies to WQ), you can turn back.

That way, if future expansions have revealed endings of (making this up)...

-Discard 50pts of trophies

-Discard 4 Magic items

-Discard 20 Lives / Strength / Craft / Gold

normally, people don't just discard, say, trophies for no reason.  You'd "normally" have to have a revealed ending up, that says "First person to reach the CoC having discarded 50 pts of Trophies win" before people would waste the trophies.

By having them hidden, it means that, "to be sure", would have to 50 pts of trophies, and do 4 WQ, and Discard 4 magic items, AND... just to fulfil all the "by the book, should have been revealed endings" therefore, stretching out the game.  That, or the person only does 1-2 of the "prep" endings, and hopes to God s/he doesn't draw one s/he hasn't prepped for.

-

I know, pretty convoluted.  But whatever stretches the game we love, the better.

Sidenote = I know there's a homegrown section for all the home rules (that are my namesake) and all that.  But, what is proper nettiquette (if I have the term right, I'm an old dude and don't do many boards, could probably tell by all the ramblings and the "Get to the POINT man" style of writing) for things like this, where, a question was asked about a theoretical, alternate, i.e. home rules alternate, but in the main Talisman Threads... vs making a new topic in home rules section, and linking my answer to it?

Not making it Dam's responsibility per se, you got your own things to worry about, but you do seem to be the "person to talk to" here, when it comes to rules, boards, etc...

Wishing you well...

 






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