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changing advanced to TRAINED basic / UNtrained basic


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#1 Nukenin

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:42 AM

Alright, it seems Rogue Trader differentiates between changing advanced skills to TRAINED or UNtrained basic skills. Just like with the Renegade / Dark Visionary on page 26. "In return, you gain the Dark Soul Talent and Forbidden Lore as a trained Basic Skill". So why exactly would it be important to change the former advanced Forbidden Lore to basic Forbidden lore, if it' s trained anyway? What is the difference between a trained basic and a trained advanced skill?



#2 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:13 AM

In and of itself, there appears to be no distinction. However, other effects may refer to whether a skill is basic or advanced - for example, the Hotshot Pilot talent lets you treat all Pilot skills as basic skills... however, you must be trained in at least one Advanced pilot skill to be able to take the talent - being trained in a basic Pilot skill (like a Void-born becoming trained in Pilot (Spacecraft)) wouldn't qualify.


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#3 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:08 AM

 

So why exactly would it be important to change the former advanced Forbidden Lore to basic Forbidden lore, if it' s trained anyway? What is the difference between a trained basic and a trained advanced skill?

Basic skills can be used without having spent points on them.
Advanced skills must be trained(purchased) otherwise you cannot test them.

The example you show has moved forbidden lore from the advanced list to the Basic list. If a skill is in your Basic list you CAN test on it against half of your attribute, in this case half of your Intelligence bonus for Forbidden Lore.

To paraphrase: You have been trained to a Basic level in the Advanced skill Forbidden Lore. The minimal amount of training you have received has granted you the ability to make tests against half of your Intelligence Bonus. To take full advantage of this knowledge you must further study the subject (buy the full version of the skill).

 



#4 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:14 AM

I apologize for the double post. Hopefully the forum won't choke this time. Nope, it did.

 

Basic skills can be used without having spent points on them.
Advanced skills must be trained(purchased) otherwise you cannot test them.

The example you show has moved forbidden lore from the advanced list to the Basic list. If a skill is in your Basic list you CAN test on it against half of your attribute, in this case half of your Intelligence bonus for Forbidden Lore.

To paraphrase: You have been trained to a Basic level in the Advanced skill Forbidden Lore. The minimal amount of training you have received has granted you the ability to make tests against half of your Intelligence Bonus. To take full advantage of this knowledge you must further study the subject (buy the full version of the skill)

 



#5 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:33 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

Basic skills can be used without having spent points on them.
Advanced skills must be trained(purchased) otherwise you cannot test them.

The example you show has moved forbidden lore from the advanced list to the Basic list. If a skill is in your Basic list you CAN test on it against half of your attribute, in this case half of your Intelligence bonus for Forbidden Lore.

To paraphrase: You have been trained to a Basic level in the Advanced skill Forbidden Lore. The minimal amount of training you have received has granted you the ability to make tests against half of your Intelligence Bonus. To take full advantage of this knowledge you must further study the subject (buy the full version of the skill)

That's not what the rulebook says, though, and it's an incorrect assumption in any case.

'Basic' is not a level of training you are able to possess for a given skill; rather, it's a classification that determines solely whether or not the skill can be used untrained (if you needed training to be able to use a basic skill untrained, then it wouldn't be using the skill untrained, would it?).

An untrained basic skill is one where you are able to test against it without actually possessing the skill. An untrained advanced skill cannot be tested against. A trained basic skill and a trained advanced skill are, as shown on the table on page  230 of the Rogue Trader rulebook, identical in that they both (being trained skills) allow you to test using the full appropriate characteristic - at that point, the skill being basic or advanced is all but irrelevant.

"Basic" and "Advanced" have nothing to do with training, and everything to do with the ability to use untrained. Nothing more or less than that. As I pointed out previously, some rare abilities make reference to whether a skill is basic or advanced, but in the overwhelming majority of cases, there is no difference between "Trained Basic" and "Trained Advanced"


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#6 Nukenin

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 11:43 AM

Alright, thanks for all those replies ... I guess I found myself another distinction for why to change an advanced skill to basic trained ... that' s for the character generation only. If you do that and through your background choices somehow gain this skill another time, it' s up to mastery +10. If you' d just change that advanced skill to basic untrained ... that wouldn' t give you the mastery in this case, but simply a "trained" in that skill.



#7 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 04:28 AM

It is my belief that what was meant by the wording is that you get to check the box on the skill list under the Basic column next to your Forbidden Lore skill on the RT character sheet.

 The fact that it is worded using the term Basic would, in my view, override the trained bit and result in the skill being counted as a Basic skill. If this is supposed to represent gaining this skill as Trained calling it Basic is redundant and confusing. Ultimately Errata should clear this up. 

 



#8 dvang

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:14 AM

As N0-1_H3R3 said

Untrained Basic is at half stat, Trained Basic is at full stat.

Untrained Advanced cannot be tested against at all.



#9 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 12:16 PM

ItsUncertainWho said:

It is my belief that what was meant by the wording is that you get to check the box on the skill list under the Basic column next to your Forbidden Lore skill on the RT character sheet.

 The fact that it is worded using the term Basic would, in my view, override the trained bit and result in the skill being counted as a Basic skill. If this is supposed to represent gaining this skill as Trained calling it Basic is redundant and confusing. Ultimately Errata should clear this up. 

 

It doesn't need to. The matter is covered in two separate places in the rulebook (Page 74, page 230), neither of which support your assertion.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.




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