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40 page instruction guide?


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#1 gdherdter

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 03:09 PM

Is it just me or does a 40 page instruction guide seem a bit much.  I love games but I have come to the point where a game that takes all day to learn is more a chore thanfun.  Games with rules like this often tend to require the players to go back to over and over again because it is just too complicated?  What about a big box game with lots of bit, lots of fun and EASY to learn and play?



#2 ioticus

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 03:41 PM

 I was actually hoping for at least 48 pages, which is the size of the Twilight Imperium rulebook.  Remember that a lot of pages are taken up by the index, charts, and advertisements.  I like a beefy game.



#3 Old Blue

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 06:56 PM

ioticus said:

I like a beefy game.

My wife doesn't - so I can't have any more beans



#4 Stefan

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 10:44 PM

40 pages isn't much. Consider that FFG makes very tall, pictured examples. The rules themselves take mostly half of the book at most.



#5 Steve-O

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:35 AM

gdherdter said:

Is it just me or does a 40 page instruction guide seem a bit much.  I love games but I have come to the point where a game that takes all day to learn is more a chore thanfun.  Games with rules like this often tend to require the players to go back to over and over again because it is just too complicated?  What about a big box game with lots of bit, lots of fun and EASY to learn and play?

I like games with a lot of bits.  I also like games that are easy to learn.  In my experience, the two very seldom intersect.  A lot of bits means a lot of rules to tell you what all those bits do.  FFG, in particular, is not known for making simple games.  At least not in the big boxes.  I love FFG games up and down the street, but simple they generally ain't.  This is something you should be aware of before buying into their products.  If you want simple, stick to the smaller box games.  These big epic-sized boxes are as much a warning of what you're getting into as they are a means to store all the fiddly bits inside =)

To answer your question, no 40 pages doesn't seem too much to me.  In fact, I'd rather prefer it were longer since a game this big will undoubtedly take a lot of words to explain clearly.



#6 strayknife

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:41 AM

gdherdter said:

Is it just me or does a 40 page instruction guide seem a bit much. 

I'd have to say it's just you. I could read rulebooks all day.



#7 Hagard

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 09:19 AM

The first read through might be a bit time comsuming, but as the most FFG Productions have shown:

The Rules Click together

The Turnsequence can be summarised on a sheet of paper (or as Quickrefference on the Back of the Booklet)

Most of the Rules are pretty Pictures that help you understand what is going on (and thus helping you to remember them better).

Most of the Material will tell you when to use it  "Use this Card in your Upkeep Phase" and what it does "Archers Shoot Twice" "Draw more Battle Cards" or something similar

 

 

And if nothing helps... something ist unclear: Ask the Community, Ask your Mates.... or Houserule it so that it makes sense to you (it is your game after all)

 

Reading the Rules with your Gaming Buddys (or sending them the link to the online rules pdf) is part of the Fun (and can speed up the first game night...).... and rule disputes are part of the expirience. After the first few plays the rulebook will stay in the box.



#8 mwdalrymple

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 09:20 AM

 if they would only provide a GOOD INSERT to organize all the bits.. now that would really help!



#9 Hem

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 11:48 PM

strayknife said:

I'd have to say it's just you. I could read rulebooks all day.

 

 

 

Same here. 40 pages only ? bring me a hundred pages one ! As I said in another thread (forgot where), one of the very first pleasure in present-times-games is - after opening the box and discovering and manipulating all of its wonderful components - to read and read and read the rules booklet night and day, in transports, in bed, and all. It is like a novel l

 

It'll be hard to find players for such a new FFG-tanky game, but come on, TI3 in a fantasy (runebound) world ? I'm in. Definitely watching closely the future of this game. Cheers.



#10 Stefan

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 02:27 AM

I always garbage the insert, whether it is plastic or paper. I purchase bags and those neat little plastic boxes. I don't want an unflexible insert. Of course, they can make one that fits your needs and I throw it away regardless ^^



#11 superklaus

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:00 AM

Hem said:

Same here. 40 pages only ? bring me a hundred pages one ! As I said in another thread (forgot where), one of the very first pleasure in present-times-games is - after opening the box and discovering and manipulating all of its wonderful components - to read and read and read the rules booklet night and day, in transports, in bed, and all. It is like a novel l

 

Well you dont think that a reason you dont find players are because of the thick rulebooks noone (except some extra nerds) want to learn?



#12 sigmazero13

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 04:54 PM

superklaus said:

 

Well you dont think that a reason you dont find players are because of the thick rulebooks noone (except some extra nerds) want to learn?

I can't speak for him, but I know the reason I find it hard to put on the table has nothing to do with the complexity, but just that it's hard to find players to commit 6 hours to a game (or finding 6 hours to commit myself).

I'd rather have a meaty, complex game that gets on the table occasionally than a shadow of what it COULD have been, watered down simply to appease the masses.



#13 Hem

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 07:58 AM

superklaus said:

 

 

Well you dont think that a reason you dont find players are because of the thick rulebooks noone (except some extra nerds) want to learn?

 

 

Nope, I don't. Because 1) Be reassured, I find players, especially because 2) I am the only one taking time to learn the rules, and then 3) I teach to my friends who want to play these fabulous games and I do it during the begining of a new game, so everything is really smooth. And I am sorry, but in our times, you buy a game with a single sheet rules booklet.... man, there are many chances (not a hundred percent obviously) your game is boring. You want to play during a snack before diner ? you play a tiny game, with one page rules. You want to spend four hours during the afternoon with friends gathered around a table and a fabulous product which may NOT be a role playing game BUT a board game ? you'll have to get these complex and rich (but not complicated, that's the trick) rules, or else, you'll get bored after an hour of it.

- in other words, I second sigmazero ;) that is, not the part about commiting myself, eh ? the part just before ;)



#14 Old Dwarf

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 10:03 AM

A good rule book is great reading material & FFG recent ones ME Quest & CitOW have been very clear & organized.I never got into RB but this game has me interested.Before I commit a C Note I'll need to find out a lot more but I'm hoprful about this one.

 

OD


A Dwarf in Winter


#15 Killer Power

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 11:06 PM

A fourty pages rulebook isn't the problem for me.

What bothers me is the fact that FFG never amkes any summaries one the side of a page (and those pages are big enough most of the times) or at least some great index.

So most of the time when you need the rule of a specific bit of the game (which is a bit out of the context of a main rule... if you understand what I mean) you are busy flipping pages and cross reading...

 

I haven't give up hope that FFG will do that one day or another. Maybe with this game? :oD



#16 sigmazero13

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 05:23 AM

If they don't, someone on BGG inevitably will make such a summary :)



#17 jogo

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 09:09 AM

At least Chaos in the Old World got an index. So I hope for some index in Runewars too.



#18 superklaus

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 07:47 AM

Hem said:

 

superklaus said:

 

 

Well you dont think that a reason you dont find players are because of the thick rulebooks noone (except some extra nerds) want to learn?

 

 

Nope, I don't. Because 1) Be reassured, I find players, especially because 2) I am the only one taking time to learn the rules, and then 3) I teach to my friends who want to play these fabulous games and I do it during the begining of a new game, so everything is really smooth. And I am sorry, but in our times, you buy a game with a single sheet rules booklet.... man, there are many chances (not a hundred percent obviously) your game is boring. You want to play during a snack before diner ? you play a tiny game, with one page rules. You want to spend four hours during the afternoon with friends gathered around a table and a fabulous product which may NOT be a role playing game BUT a board game ? you'll have to get these complex and rich (but not complicated, that's the trick) rules, or else, you'll get bored after an hour of it.

- in other words, I second sigmazero ;) that is, not the part about commiting myself, eh ? the part just before ;)

 

 

 

You are obviously a fan of thick rulebooks. In the 90ties I was too. In those days I was playing - among others - two of the most complex games one could imagine. "Advanced Squad Leader" and "The longest day" from AH (with about 3.500 counters). One of these wargames is more complex than all FFG games ever made together and 1 game of TLD could last for 1 full week or more. But nowadays I am older, dont have much time and I just want to play simpler games. So I am enjoying the simple small games of FFG and I even detect that a 48pager (at which I would just have snobbily loughed at in those days) is more than enough for my current taste. I had my part on some of the most complex games mankind created, in my life. I dont want to repeat this.



#19 Hem

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:12 PM

Wow holy poo, one week ? what are these ! tell us more, that sounds plain crazy. But I understand the time limit, obviously.



#20 Stefan

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 07:08 AM

I hate these counter games. Not due to their complexity, but to their apparent lack of asthetic qualities. The eye has its fair share playing with FFG games, while with those counter-monsters, it's a very boring sight.






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