Jump to content



Photo

Fun game. but a coupple of questions


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 mathulus

mathulus

    Member

  • Members
  • 64 posts

Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:33 AM

Hi. I've just gotten my copies of the core set. So I've studied the cards and played a couple of caos vs dwarf games. There has come up a couple of things that is unclear to me:

Does the "during combat" of the Shrine to Nurgle mean, during that unit is in combat. Or generally, when there is combat. Because if it is the latter, then you culd do some really nasty things with caos.

With the Slaaneshs Domination can you play an action that cannot be fulfilled, like Grudgetower Assault outside of the Battlefield Phase? Does the tactic cards you play become discarded? Do the opponent keep the tactic cards you do not play? Can you play them later?

If two Dwarf Rangers is defending (in the quest zone) and both are killed, do their abillities trigger?

How does Rune of Fortitude stack (if they are in the same zone)? I'm guessing that the loss in power stack, but you still only need to pay one resource per unit to bring them upp to full power again.

Does The Greatswords gain power when they themselves enter a zone? Since the effect is resolved after they has entered the zone, i'm guessing yes.

While you can play actions "in response" to other actions, do you have to? For example if my opponent plays Striking the Grudge on his Dwarf Masons, after he declared them as Defenders. Could I wait for his action to resolve, and then play my Blood for the Blood God?

Can you still redirect damage that cannot be canceled?

Any input is appreciated =)



#2 Buhallin

Buhallin

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,275 posts

Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:03 AM

mathulus said:

Hi. I've just gotten my copies of the core set. So I've studied the cards and played a couple of caos vs dwarf games. There has come up a couple of things that is unclear to me:

Does the "during combat" of the Shrine to Nurgle mean, during that unit is in combat. Or generally, when there is combat. Because if it is the latter, then you culd do some really nasty things with caos.

With the Slaaneshs Domination can you play an action that cannot be fulfilled, like Grudgetower Assault outside of the Battlefield Phase? Does the tactic cards you play become discarded? Do the opponent keep the tactic cards you do not play? Can you play them later?

If two Dwarf Rangers is defending (in the quest zone) and both are killed, do their abillities trigger?

How does Rune of Fortitude stack (if they are in the same zone)? I'm guessing that the loss in power stack, but you still only need to pay one resource per unit to bring them upp to full power again.

Does The Greatswords gain power when they themselves enter a zone? Since the effect is resolved after they has entered the zone, i'm guessing yes.

While you can play actions "in response" to other actions, do you have to? For example if my opponent plays Striking the Grudge on his Dwarf Masons, after he declared them as Defenders. Could I wait for his action to resolve, and then play my Blood for the Blood God?

Can you still redirect damage that cannot be canceled?

Any input is appreciated =)

My (quite unofficial) interpretations:

- Combat is not a phase, so I think that if a unit isn't actively attacking or defending, it's not in combat.

- I would say that apart from paying the cost (which is specifically mentioned) any other restrictions on the card's ability, targets, etc. still apply.  If the card can't be played for whatever reason, I think it would go back to its owners hand.

- Yes

- Each are separate abilities, with their own cost to cancel.

- The ability of the Greatswords isn't active when they are played, so I don't think it can trigger based off of them being played.

- Yes, you can wait and play it as a separate action rather than doing it as a response.  A Phase only ends when both players have passed their opportunity to initiate actions.

- Redirect is not cancel, so I think you can.  The damage is still hitting, and so has not been cancelled, it's just not ending up where expected.

 



#3 dormouse

dormouse

    LCG Designer

  • Members
  • 1,680 posts

Posted 08 October 2009 - 10:24 AM

I'm going to number these  just to make this easier to get through.

mathulus said:

1) Does the "during combat" of the Shrine to Nurgle mean, during that unit is in combat. Or generally, when there is combat. Because if it is the latter, then you culd do some really nasty things with caos.

2) With the Slaaneshs Domination can you play an action that cannot be fulfilled, like Grudgetower Assault outside of the Battlefield Phase? Does the tactic cards you play become discarded? Do the opponent keep the tactic cards you do not play? Can you play them later?

3) If two Dwarf Rangers is defending (in the quest zone) and both are killed, do their abillities trigger?

4) How does Rune of Fortitude stack (if they are in the same zone)? I'm guessing that the loss in power stack, but you still only need to pay one resource per unit to bring them upp to full power again.

5) Does The Greatswords gain power when they themselves enter a zone? Since the effect is resolved after they has entered the zone, i'm guessing yes.

6) While you can play actions "in response" to other actions, do you have to? For example if my opponent plays Striking the Grudge on his Dwarf Masons, after he declared them as Defenders. Could I wait for his action to resolve, and then play my Blood for the Blood God?

7) Can you still redirect damage that cannot be canceled?

1) It must be during the combat section of a Battlefield phase... but the unit does not have to be in combat nor does the damage have to be combat damage, and yes you Chaos can do some wicked things with this.

2) No you may not play a tactic whose effect cannot be fulfilled. You can only play a card that can legally be played. It has to meet any and all play restrictions except cost. Yes the tactic you play is discarded, just like normal.Yes your opponent gets to keep any tactics you cannot play. No you may not play them later.

3) No. When they have damage tokens equal to their HP they are immediately removed from play, at the same time, with no opportunity for either to trigger off the other, and since it says "other dwarf units" it cannot trigger off itself.

4) Exactly like it says.Each has their own effect and their own cost to neutralize so you would have to pay two resources, one for each, for your characters normal power to apply.

5) No. The ability is only active when it is in play. Once the card is in play there is nothing to trigger it. It would have to be phrased as "When this unit enters a Zone or any other unit enters this zone..." Only tactics can be triggered from out of play unless the card specifically says otherwise. If the card is moved from one zone to another though it would trigger.

6) You never have to respond to anything.

7) Yes because redirected damage is not the same as canceling it.

 


"words are like arrows, once loosened you cannot call them back"


#4 Buhallin

Buhallin

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,275 posts

Posted 08 October 2009 - 06:04 PM

Whoops, misread 3 - thought it was just asking if the two could trigger off the same death.  But yes, dormouse has it right on that one, my bad there.

But are you sure about #1?  The term 'combat' seems to be pretty vague.  There are several references to dealing combat damage, though, which seems to specifically refer to damage inflicted by units during a combat.  It certainly seems different from just being a shorthand for "Damage during the Battlefield Phase".



#5 Ruvion

Ruvion

    Member

  • Members
  • 758 posts

Posted 08 October 2009 - 06:35 PM

I agree with dormouse here on #1.

My reasoning is as follows (much easier to see if you break it down):

Shrine to Nurgle (Chaos support):  Kingdom. Forced: After an opponent's unit is damaged during combat, corrupt that unit.

 

-The TIMING of this card: during combat (ie Battlefield phase).

-the TARGET: there is no mention of the opponent's unit requiring to participate in the said combat. Thus any of your opponent's units that meets the trigger mentioned below fits the description of target for this support card.

-the TRIGGER (forced in this case): when a target unit is damaged (does not mention what type of damage, so it can even be damage from triggered Action effects) during the timing mentioned above.

-the EFFECT: corrupt the target.



#6 mathulus

mathulus

    Member

  • Members
  • 64 posts

Posted 09 October 2009 - 01:39 AM

Thank you for your responses. A coupple of thoughts on the awnsers.

1) Normally speaking, if someone say that someone got hurt during combat. It's implied that that person was participating i said combat, in some way, and not far far away from it during the same time. While tecnically correct, it feels for me like exploiting an plausible oversight in the card text.

The nasty things I am thinking is: When the opponent is declaring a zone to attack, you play Nurgles Pestilence and possible corrupt all of the oponents units. Or just corrupt the opponents units in the zone you choose to attack, with the Nurgle Sorcerer, before he declares defenders.

Maybe the Blessing of Isha cards will find their way in to the order decks now.

 

3) I don't se why it wuldn't be able to trigger on other units, while it could trigger on itself (if it didn't specify "other" on the card, like the Zhufbar Engineres).

 

5) Isn't The Greatswords in play after it has enterd the zone? (it could also enter a zone from an other zone. If it's in play isn't the problem then.)



#7 dormouse

dormouse

    LCG Designer

  • Members
  • 1,680 posts

Posted 09 October 2009 - 03:41 AM

mathulus said:

 

Thank you for your responses. A coupple of thoughts on the awnsers.

1) Normally speaking, if someone say that someone got hurt during combat. It's implied that that person was participating i said combat, in some way, and not far far away from it during the same time. While tecnically correct, it feels for me like exploiting an plausible oversight in the card text.

The nasty things I am thinking is: When the opponent is declaring a zone to attack, you play Nurgles Pestilence and possible corrupt all of the oponents units. Or just corrupt the opponents units in the zone you choose to attack, with the Nurgle Sorcerer, before he declares defenders.

Maybe the Blessing of Isha cards will find their way in to the order decks now.

 

3) I don't se why it wuldn't be able to trigger on other units, while it could trigger on itself (if it didn't specify "other" on the card, like the Zhufbar Engineres).

 

5) Isn't The Greatswords in play after it has enterd the zone? (it could also enter a zone from an other zone. If it's in play isn't the problem then.)

 

 

1) We don't want to deal with implications or assumptions about intent, we want to go by the specifics of the rules and the cards. I wouldn't be surprised if this is something clarified in the FAQ so it does specifically only work on cards that receive combat damage, but that is not what the card says. There are various effects that would damage a unit participating in combat, during combat, that would not be combat damage. Do you think the card is meant to ignore those as well? Because right ow it is really one way or the other with no in between. It either affects all units who are damaged during combat (while combat is on going), or it affects only cards that are damaged in combat (received combat damage which does not include any direct or indirect damage from tactics or supports, or counterstrike).

Until this is changed it would mean the former not the latter. Our job as players is not to figure out what the intent of the developers was and go by that, but to play the cards according to the ruels provided us. If we don't think it makes sense, or the impact seems out of proportion to the cost or way other things work in the game then we can send it in as a question and receive a ruling.

3) Actually this is one which may need to go to Nate. I am starting to suspect that they may in fact be able to. This will be a lot easier to determine when we have a fully fleshed out FAQ which shows some of the timing of these things. For now I'd say yes, they could each trigger off the other and site the Engineers as precedent, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it changed/clarified either.

5 Yes the Greatswords are in play after they have entered the zone but their ability was not in play when the triggering action happened. Without a flow chart it is difficult to come up with a definitive ruling for forced effects in regards to something entering or leaving play. Normally speaking only tactics can be triggered out of play and to respond to an action. Abilities must be in play when the trigger happens in order to produce an effect. Greatswords and their ability was not in play when the trigger happened. Again this is one I'd send to Nate for clarification. Hopefully if he is bombarded with questions it will encourage him to get that FAQ out.


"words are like arrows, once loosened you cannot call them back"


#8 Hurdoc

Hurdoc

    Member

  • Members
  • 180 posts

Posted 09 October 2009 - 04:56 AM

We actually had this happen last night. I played Troll Vomit on my opponent and he had 6 (!) dwarf units out with one of them being a Dwarf Ranger. We decided that that Ranger could do 5 points of damage. I wasn't certain whether we were correct but I don't mind losing to my son.



#9 ChaosChild

ChaosChild

    Member

  • Members
  • 526 posts

Posted 09 October 2009 - 05:15 AM

I'm not sure that would work under those circumstances. Dwarf Ranger would be destroyed at the same time as the other units and therefore wouldn't be in a position to react with its forced action.

Not 100% sure on this however. I know a forced action can fire from the discard pile (e.g. Zhufbar Engineers) but does that only apply if the effect specifically says so?



#10 dormouse

dormouse

    LCG Designer

  • Members
  • 1,680 posts

Posted 09 October 2009 - 06:11 AM

One of the things we are discussing on BoardGeek.


"words are like arrows, once loosened you cannot call them back"





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS