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Fewer than 3 copies of a card in the core?


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#1 TheGreenKnight0

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 02:16 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I thought the fundamental building block of the LCG systems was that you purchased the game and received everything you needed to build your decks sans the new booster sets which themselves would contain 3 copies of all cards in that subset hence doing away w/ the need to chase after cards in random boosters.  This concept is the major aspect that has drawn me to this game yet when I just purchased my core set I was very surprised to find that some cards have only 2 or even 1 copy provided.  Were the other 2 LCG games like this?  Are the cards that only have one copy considered "rare" or are you only allowed to have one copy in your deck?  Will the remaining cardsbe provided in a future supplement?  If not then I would have to say that I am already disappointed as the "no rarity" aspect was a huge boon in my mind, relying heavily on the idea that a good deck was built out of skill not out of the ability to buy 3 $40 Booster(core) boxes.  Pleases enlighten me and tell me and tel me something to ease my concerns or I fear I may need to cease this game before I truly begin as I cannot afford yet another collectible game by another name.  I had such huge hopes for this system to help reshape the gaming community.



#2 gamjuven

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 04:28 PM

Unfortunately for you it does seem that the core set was purposefully created with the decks having some cards not at a total of 3. This does mean that in order to have 3 cards of some cards you would need 3 core sets. This pales in comparison to the issue if you want every deck to have neutral cards (some of which there are only 1 in a core set). As far as I know there are no plans to release these "missing" cards.

I still love the game and I hope you do too. The game is still fun with just one copy of some cards. If you want to play in hardcore tournaments perhaps you would need to get multiple copies, but I think the cards in the core decks are good enough that you could make a decent deck without the need of multiple cards.



#3 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 05:00 PM

TheGreenKnight0 said:

  I had such huge hopes for this system to help reshape the gaming community.

You're not forced to get 3x everything...I like casual play AS WELL AS tournament play and I've NEVER bought more than 1 copy of a single Chapter Pack (I'm in AGOT). I've bought 3x Core Set to get some useful cards and i UNDERSTAND your concern, cause it's disappointing...And BELIEVE me, you're very lucky cause in AGOT we had 1x of almost any card (just a couple 3x per faction).

In the future, if you find a couple of decks to invest in, you'll find LOTS OF WAYS to purchase singles.

An LCG is not collectible and you'll never need to spend lots of money to play.

 

 



#4 Ruvion

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 05:01 PM

I think there is a misconception shared by some new players, regarding what exactly is LCG. To answer the straight and short of what it is: it's not a complete (as in 3 of each card) set in itself. It is however a playable set, if you are going to be facing other players under the same conditions: say 1 Core Set each with a few agreed upon expansions. There is also the fact that you do not need 3 of every card...from what others with play experiences tell me, there is maybe one or two cards they thought they needed 3 of.

To give a comparison with the other LCGs:

AGoT Core Set has a few resource producing cards in twos or threes, but characters are all singletons except for two characters.

CoC were all singletons in the Core Set.

By contrast, Invasion LCG has the most repeated card count in its Core Set (much to my chagrin).

One of the strengths of the LCG is that you know exactly (from fan postings) what cards you are buying when you buy that Battle, Chapter, or Asylum Pack, neverminding the Core Sets. This allows you to pick and choose which expansion you want/need. This is all the while preserving the endless variety and strategic deck building options that traditional CCGs offer.

From the postings of play experiences of others, you will likely still have great play experiences even if you should never buy past the single Core Set. So give it a try or a dozen. Let's talk afterwards if you've made a bad purchase decision or not.



#5 vermillian

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 05:54 PM

When you buy the Core set of an LCG you get

*one or more copy of every card (with this no blind pulls)
*enough cards to build a variety of two simultaneous decks
*whose decks are balanced amongst themselves

Now if you want to be the super uber competetive in every tournament scene ever you'll need to have three or more cards of every set ever. Naturally. However this wont cost you as much as a TCG would.

The other trick is that if you get savy with what's in the packs, you can selective NOT buy some of them. You don't have this choice in a TCG. If you choose not to buy a certain set, you miss out on 200 some cards. You skip a Battle Pack in WAR you miss out on 20 cards.

Also, if every pack ever had 3x of each card, the cost would likely be more, now making it more prohibitive for many casual players to getting in to the game, like myself. I do NOT plan on buying 3 of each Battle Pack (ATM), though I do plan on having a go at being moderately competetive.

....

On another topic... why does everyone play card games like they HAVE to have 3x (or 4x) of every card in its existence? ... I know people that play TCGs like they were fixed games... its weird...



#6 TheGreenKnight0

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 06:25 PM

I don't doubt that it will be very entertaining and a well thought out game.  I will surely play the copy I have and will most likely enjoy it.  The hopes I speak of are that I saw the LCG system as a response from those out there like myself who love games that allow for creative options but hate the chase of seeking out collectible playsets, where competion in a game is too often dictated by how much you are willing to shell out for a playset of rare/powerful cards/figures and then get stuck w/ masses of useless extras (in excess of playset numbers).  From a stand alone, out of the box view  I'm sure it's plenty balanced and boat loads of fun but I do recall reading something about the games being sold as playsets when FFG announced the LCGs to emphasize deck building skills and strategy not card singles hunting.  Perhaps they were refering to the Boosters but I don't even know if those are full playsets either.  I'm sure your not going to need 3 of every card but deck building strategy revolves around many factors and consistancy is a huge one.  I may play a deck multiple time and never see a 1 off card that really links my strategy together.  And because that card is a loner in the set, regardless of whether a rarity icon is assigned to it or not, it is a rare.  To get extra copies I have to buy a $40 Booster (core) box that I know will contain another one, as well many other extra cards I won't need.  This, in my opinion, makes it marginaly better than just buying 2 starter decks of  any CCG to play w/ a friend.  I had just hoped that FFG would have stayed closer to the Stated Model when the promotional literature was announced for the LCG systems, that's the source of the disappointment. 



#7 TheGreenKnight0

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 06:46 PM

vermillian,

Honestly putting out packs of 3x each of a 20 card set should not be cost prohibitive at all.  That is 60 cards, a standard starter pack for any game out there, and even for the best quality printed cards will cost a player well under $20 dollars.  No one is saying that you have to have a full playset for any one deck, the emphasis is on the creativity.  If you have the full playset you may be more inclined to try a deck building strategy that may not seem to be obvious but ends up working great for you or quickly scrap one that doesn't pan out and try something else fresh.  You may not be able to play more than 1 King Kazador at a time or need more than 1 Nurgle Sorcerer but if your strategy relies on that card being played at all during the game your going to want to limit the laws of chance from 1 in 50 to at least 1 in 25 or even 1 in 16.7.  I just really wanted this format to put a noticable dent in the Collectible market and make a statement about the stupidity of rareness in game systems.



#8 Ruvion

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 08:05 PM

Although I do not have insider info on financial matters when it comes to the LCG lines, from all indications I think it is doing very well and as a repercussion is making a statement in the gaming community. This wave or movement is slow to start, but I am sure it will inevitably bring about a change in the way CCG games are viewed. You can't topple the high money MtG giant, but that's a different beast altogether.

Believe it or not, I understand your hopes and subsequent dissapointments. But it is the best alternative to the CCG model out there at this point in time. Your proposed model would not make much money for a business (I'm sure those marketing guys at FFG worked this out) and for a business to lose money on a money intensive investment (for them) such a this, would mean a financial flop or even a disaster for them. Or at the very least, low revenue would lead to a poorer poduct which will eventually lead to selling off or cancellation of the product.



#9 Lorini

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Posted 02 October 2009 - 02:54 AM

The important difference between a CCG and this game is that you know exactly how many boxes you need to buy to get a complete set. In MtG for example, you have no clue as to how many boxes you would need. In WI, you know you need three boxes of the core set. This means that you can budget how much the game is going to cost you. While it's not perfect, it's still a lot less expensive to buy all three copies of each card in WI than it would ever be to buy all four copies of a 'mythic rare' by acquiring boxes for MtG.



#10 Wytefang

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Posted 02 October 2009 - 08:21 AM

Lorini said:

The important difference between a CCG and this game is that you know exactly how many boxes you need to buy to get a complete set. In MtG for example, you have no clue as to how many boxes you would need. In WI, you know you need three boxes of the core set. This means that you can budget how much the game is going to cost you. While it's not perfect, it's still a lot less expensive to buy all three copies of each card in WI than it would ever be to buy all four copies of a 'mythic rare' by acquiring boxes for MtG.

 

This is EXACTLY on the money - I like to call this "collector's certainty" - you know that you WILL be able to own every card in the game and thus compete with other players.  Figures that a company would come up with a great idea like this and people will still )*#)@*@ and moan about it.  Go figure.  


"SHOW ME WHAT PASSES FOR FURY AMONGST YOUR MISBEGOTTEN KIND!"

 

W40K: Conquest LCG Facebook Page - https://www.facebook...35904116588456/

 


#11 vermillian

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 08:55 AM

TheGreenKnight0 said:

vermillian,

Honestly putting out packs of 3x each of a 20 card set should not be cost prohibitive at all.  That is 60 cards, a standard starter pack for any game out there, and even for the best quality printed cards will cost a player well under $20 dollars.  No one is saying that you have to have a full playset for any one deck, the emphasis is on the creativity.  If you have the full playset you may be more inclined to try a deck building strategy that may not seem to be obvious but ends up working great for you or quickly scrap one that doesn't pan out and try something else fresh.  You may not be able to play more than 1 King Kazador at a time or need more than 1 Nurgle Sorcerer but if your strategy relies on that card being played at all during the game your going to want to limit the laws of chance from 1 in 50 to at least 1 in 25 or even 1 in 16.7.  I just really wanted this format to put a noticable dent in the Collectible market and make a statement about the stupidity of rareness in game systems.

Starter decks in other TCGs are good to play with, but the 20 dollars invested in that (for two of them) is in NO way near the percentage of the total three of every card collection, as the 20 dollars you'd invest in an LCG.

Consider my buying habits for UFS. I'd buy probably 10 boxes and MAYBE have 4 of every copy of the cards in that set 180 card set (granted UFS has ultra rares but so does magic now too). 10 boxes for maybe 4 of each copy is 530 dollars (on potomac) for ufs. That's a BIG maybe on getting all even the chases.

Consider warhammer invasion. consider the core set and say the first 4 battle packs. That's 30 x 3 + 9x3x4 (on potomac). That's only 198.

AND I know exactly what i'm getting AND I know that I'll be able to skip out on buyign 3x of one or two of the Battle Packs if it doesn't have anything in there I'm digging at the time.

Argue with that please.



#12 TheGreenKnight0

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 11:45 AM

This is a game , right?  A game no different than any other FFG that they produce w/ a caore game and expansions.  I buy the core boardgame of Runebound and decide I want to buy the expansion card packs.  Do I know what I'm getting?  Do I have to buy multiples of the same expansion? In fact would buying multiples do me any good?  Are the profits on the Runebound Core game and expansion suffering because players only have to ever buy one of each and FFG only really ever has to print one copy of each expansion per every Core ever produced at the most.  There are many card games out there w/ expansions that contain card list that are set, this is nothing new, Munchkin, Gloom, Chez Geek, Flux.  What set the LCG apart was that the game is designed to play like a TCG but sold as a standard boardgame w/ expansions that emphasized talent in deckbuilding and play.  To make comparisons to other TCGs misses the point, its not one.  The forefather to this system from a FFG standpoint could be drawn to Blue Moon.  Each faction deck gives you all you need to customize and play that faction, I don't hear anyone at all comparing that game to a TCG.  There is nothing prohibitive, from a production standpoint, for FFG producing these games just as they would any of their other stand alone games, any arguement to the contrary to me sounds like an excuse.  The business models for collectable games and non collectables are not equatable.



#13 blkdymnd

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 12:03 PM

Well, you'll not be pleased or swayed by anything that anyone on here says obviously, so it'll be your choice to buy in or not.  FFG has already done this business model twice, and I know that Cthulu has been pretty successful for them in our local area (I don't play, but it runs off the shelf everytime they get it in). 



#14 vermillian

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 01:04 PM

TheGreenKnight0 said:

This is a game , right?  A game no different than any other FFG that they produce w/ a caore game and expansions.  I buy the core boardgame of Runebound and decide I want to buy the expansion card packs.  Do I know what I'm getting?  Do I have to buy multiples of the same expansion? In fact would buying multiples do me any good?  Are the profits on the Runebound Core game and expansion suffering because players only have to ever buy one of each and FFG only really ever has to print one copy of each expansion per every Core ever produced at the most.  There are many card games out there w/ expansions that contain card list that are set, this is nothing new, Munchkin, Gloom, Chez Geek, Flux.  What set the LCG apart was that the game is designed to play like a TCG but sold as a standard boardgame w/ expansions that emphasized talent in deckbuilding and play.  To make comparisons to other TCGs misses the point, its not one.  The forefather to this system from a FFG standpoint could be drawn to Blue Moon.  Each faction deck gives you all you need to customize and play that faction, I don't hear anyone at all comparing that game to a TCG.  There is nothing prohibitive, from a production standpoint, for FFG producing these games just as they would any of their other stand alone games, any arguement to the contrary to me sounds like an excuse.  The business models for collectable games and non collectables are not equatable.

My apologies for comparing this game to TCGs, which, correct me if I'm wrong, you did as well...

I'm not entirely sure HOW massively marketted the LCG model was marketted as a Board Game style... in that you only ever need to buy just one of them to be able to play. I mean you DO only ever need to buy one to play, and you CAN be competetive, just not UBER competetive... so I guess I only really have a few more things to say about the advantages of the LCG vs. a CCG vs. a Board Game.

Board games are done. you buy one of them and you play with it. If there is an expansion, usually all players play with the expansion, though not all Board games with expansions... so I suppose that is moot.

The LCG is going to introduce to you a collection of cards in the core set that will enable you to play effectively with most factions. Monthly or so we'll get expansions of some cards, which we can buy or not buy as we see fit, to update our decks with. I don't believe the other games that are 'complete in one purchase' were updated as often as monthly. If you want a few more copies of certain cards and not some others, you can buy more than one copy of some of the sets, but you don't have to. In the customizable 'board games', you do not have the advantage of just buying a minimal amount of an expansion. The maximum amount of an expansion you can buy is also the minimum. In LCGs you can buy 10, 20, or 30 dollars worth of the expansion.

And lastly there is the format. Typically, in past LCGs (AGoT and CoC) there are two formats IIRC. One is the standard rule book, 3x copies of any card in your deck, game on.

The second format is the league format, where only ONE of every set released is allowed in anyone's deck. Where 2 copies of Rune of Dismay is NOT allowed because the Core Set only comes with one of them.

Now we don't have any information on formats quite yet, however that is typically a very popular way to run local leagues.

I am sorry that you were lead to beleive something about this game that is different than what it is... the game IS playable with only one of every core set and expansion. It is competetive (I know its feasible to function well in CoC with only one of each Pack). It IS all you'll ever NEED to buy. 

CONCLUSION

The OPTION to buy more is something that many people enjoy. I, for one, enjoy the ability to determine when I buy expansions and HOW much of that expansion to buy. The LCG model is this hybrid of the CCG model and the absolutely fixed model, and I like that for what it is.

Now can we start talking about deck builds on this forum, which is supposed to be about deck building?... mod? Move to general discussion please? :)

 



#15 TheGreenKnight0

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 02:36 PM

My intent was initially about deck building and I'm sorry if things went in an "everyone thinks I'm bashing FFG" path.  I'm really not, I love just about everything I've ever played from them.  I'm sure I will enjoy this as well but just because I enjoy a game that doesn't mean I can't comment critically on it.  I do have to thank you for pointing out the alternative formats of play and ultimately that was the kind of info I was hoping to receive.  I was not aware that there was a "one of each set" format and I find that heartening.  I honestly wasn't looking forward to having 2 extra sets of capital boards and stacks of unplayable extra cards, that's part of the reasons why I have limited my involvement in other collectable games.  In that type of format 1 copy of a card doesn't bother me as the playing field is leveled for all players.  Thank you for the info and I'm sorry everyone felt I was being unreasonably harsh.



#16 Ruvion

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 09:14 PM

This thread seems to have resolved itself, so me chiming in one final time is really addressing the future thread readers that may drop by and read this thread. I'd like the said prospective buyers to at least view the LCG lines with an open mind even if they feel that collectible gaming such as LCGs is ultimately not for them.

One thing I've noticed in the last few months and especially the past week, is that a few people seem to compare LCGs/CCGs with boardgames and boardgames in a card format. I happen to disagree that the two can be compared fairly.

I've posted some of my thoughts here and here. The point of note here is that this is coming from a boardgamer that once thought collectable gaming was too wasteful (in all sorts of ways). So if you happen to read them, take it in with a grain of salt.



#17 vermillian

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 10:51 AM

Um... I really do think the OP had an open mind... nothing aboiut his mind was closed. The only closed thing was our interpretations of his queries I think...

game on

 



#18 Ruvion

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 12:20 PM

Yes, that is why I mentioned in my first sentence of my last post that it was addressed to the future thread readers and not the OP....Because like I mentioned: this thread has resolved itself, at least insofar as the OP is concerned, without the need for my input.



#19 vermillian

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 04:34 PM

Well I was actually hoping to address to future readers that AFAIK that very few people in this conversation had a closed mind, much less the OP...

Unless you were just generically warning future thread readers of the terrors of closed-minds. If it is just a cautionary warning of threats that aren't neccesarily related to this thread, I would also like to warn of a few things.

I would like to warn of Hubris, Obessive-Compulsive Disorders, Swine Flu... wait sorry... N1H1 virus... Worshipping Slaanesh, and Tau.



#20 Ruvion

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 07:24 PM

Well it wasn't really about open-mindedness or closed-mindedness or anything general. It was about what I perceived to be misconceptions some people are bringing to the table when comparing LCGs to boardgames. It didn't seem to warrant a whole new thread at the time, and it's not like I was a last-minute straggler that didn't take part in the previous conversations, so I tacked it onto a thread that seemed resolved.

Like this one. 

I figured the general aura of open-minded understanding permeating in this thread would extend to my arguments that the idea of the LCG is unique and quite special (in a good way) among its kind and ultimately prove to yield less resistance on a conceptual level when disseminating this fact.

(<shrug> Now that my game is up, I hope the future readers do not read past the first page.)






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