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Is This Revolutionary?


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#1 Ye Ancient One

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 01:53 AM

Are the concepts and mechanics of the third edition new and exciting, or have we seen it all before?  Grognards and newbies welcome!



#2 chojun

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:54 AM

 

I think that the dice are a new concept, and maybe even revolutionary.   they give a little more depth to a roll.  its just not a d20 and some stats.  It will tell you how and why.  also, it gives the players a chance to be cautious or aggressive.  I can't count how many times back in the day of save or die saving throws, that I  wish I had a little bit more control over removing a trap.  also, who hasn't done this  when confronted with a big bad boss who starts talking trash: "enough of this crap, I'm chopping this guy in half."  I could see somebody going all red dice in this situation.

The party sheet is a pretty nifty idea.   I can't say i have heard of it before. there is alway a need in a game to get people around the table to quit arguing in game or out. 

Cards and counters.  we are talking about FFG here. In hindsight, can we say that this is a major surprise? anybody who has played Descent knows the potential of using this stuff.

The movement/no grid system is an old idea thats hopefully coming back.  I remember doing this in old school D&D, before everybody got into minitures.  before inititive started the DM would say, "ok, where is everybody at?"  I think a lot of us old schoolers kind of got our fill with miniatures and grids with 4e D&D.  back in the old days it seemed like the game moved a lot quicker because nobody had to draw anything or place anything.  and before i forget, this isnt new.  I remember when TSR totally effed over the dragon lance world by going to the card based system.(now that my friends is an example of changing the mechanics for no good reason, and for the worse).  that game had a range system just like this one.  it was probably the only thing anybody can remember from that game. it was actually a pretty neat concept.

Tracking system:  I mean, tracking systems used to be totally homebrew.  everybody has a way to keep track of something.  It just shows that FFG is thinking about the total game experience.

I like a lot of things that FFG does, and I'm an optimist.  there are a lot of hatred on this.  mainly, " this is just another example of a corporate cash grab."

but my take is that this is about as honest and genuine attempt to update roleplaying as you are going to see from a big game company.  I mean, most rpgs are a variation of the same game.  a character sheet with more or less stuff on it, and a different way of rolling the dice.  I can say that this new WFRP is a real effort to be revolutionary.  time will tell.



#3 Foolishboy

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:03 AM

Ye Ancient One said:

Are the concepts and mechanics of the third edition new and exciting, or have we seen it all before?  Grognards and newbies welcome!

There's nothing revolutionary or exciting, if you have been playing roleplay and boardgames for quite a few years then there is nothing new here at all. I keep reading posts telling me what brilliant new achievement this or that new tool will bring to the game and my answer to every single one is we're already doing that.



#4 Poe

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:44 AM

Foolishboy said:

 

Ye Ancient One said:

 

Are the concepts and mechanics of the third edition new and exciting, or have we seen it all before?  Grognards and newbies welcome!

 

 

There's nothing revolutionary or exciting, if you have been playing roleplay and boardgames for quite a few years then there is nothing new here at all. I keep reading posts telling me what brilliant new achievement this or that new tool will bring to the game and my answer to every single one is we're already doing that.

 

 

I think this is the main point. FFG has taken a bunch of useful mechanics from their succesful board games and thought about how it could be used in an rpg. If you've played both rpgs and board games you can see where these influences come from, but from a pure rpg perspective I'd say definitely a new way of thinking. If it's revolutionary or not remains to be seen, but I have my hopes up. :)



#5 DeathFromAbove

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 06:45 AM

 Revolutionary?



#6 chojun

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 07:07 AM

Poe said:

I think this is the main point. FFG has taken a bunch of useful mechanics from their succesful board games and thought about how it could be used in an rpg. If you've played both rpgs and board games you can see where these influences come from, but from a pure rpg perspective I'd say definitely a new way of thinking. If it's revolutionary or not remains to be seen, but I have my hopes up. :)

well, said.  I wish I was this articulate.



#7 Ye Ancient One

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 07:58 AM

DeathFromAbove said:

 

 Revolutionary?

 

 

I said 'is this' not 'this is'! 

I'd most like to hear about other systems that folks think have already used these mechanics and to what degree they have succeeded / failed.

This is a Manly discussion about the New Direction (or is it the Nude Erection?  yous decide ...)

 

EDIT: Plural 'yous' - and I'm keeping it, in deference to my Irish cousins.



#8 Foolishboy

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 12:10 PM

Ye Ancient One said:

I'd most like to hear about other systems that folks think have already used these mechanics and to what degree they have succeeded / failed.

I'm not really sure if it is a case of success or failure. The new mechanics are just another way of achieving the same things as the previous games did.



#9 NewTroski

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 12:50 PM

In terms of RPGs, I have not seen most of this stuff used before.  Can we at least say it's the first time these things have been put all together in an RPG?

Foolishboy, you could say that about almost all RPGs, they each have different mechanics but at the core, they're all doing the same thing - creating a narrative with rules to govern what happens in certain situations.



#10 Silent Star

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 01:48 PM

NewTroski said:

 

In terms of RPGs, I have not seen most of this stuff used before. Can we at least say it's the first time these things have been put all together in an RPG?

 

.  

Edit: My Post disappearred to bad so sad.



#11 Silent Star

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:00 PM

Try again. I think this game is a Boardgame/RPG hybrid so although the mechanics may not have appeared in an RPG they still haven't appeared in an RPG. So as far as WFRPv3 is concerned if the mechanics have appeared in a Boardgame or in an RPG it's all much the same. Ultimately I don't think there is anything revolutionary in this game. Some of it is quite nice and I think that fairly new players won't have ever seen anything like it before. But that does not make it revolutionary. 



#12 Simoses101

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 04:59 PM

Revolutionary? Yes&No At the end of the day, the merge/hybrid board RPG is not a new thing, and FFG has taken it to a whole new level, this is just the next step up for them. Will it work? Who knows. People like the box deal thing, get this box set its got all your stuff. Expand it by either getting this box set or this other one. D&D4E has how many core books now? Not including any Campaign Books Adventure packs?

 



#13 Simoses101

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 05:01 PM

Lots of ever expanding books tend to get people worried, I need all this just to play? Sounds costly, what if I hate it, I have done my cash?



#14 KjetilKverndokken

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 06:55 PM

Revolutionary.

 

Not really, it is leaning more over to doing conflict resolution then task resolution more easier. But it still has a general resolution system - though a new way of doing that - and thats the point.
If they had tried going the way of what many call the "indy" games they would have hit a much smaller market - but it is still a traditional game in this sense with a fresh set of paint. And as many forum poster have stated across a number of forums, they find it interesting and new, and may be the excuse they need to pick up warahammer again after many year of not wanting to use old systems - and thats quite positive.

 

 



#15 NewTroski

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 07:47 PM

Silent Star, what is your reasoning that this isn't an RPG?

I really don't understand this reasoning.  Deadlands uses a deck of cards, does the make it a card game/RPG hybrid?  Many RPGs have used miniatures for combat, and they're still just called RPGs, not wargame/RPG hybrids.

I don't see how the addition of some laminated reference cards and more durable character sheets makes it not an RPG anymore.  The game is still about creating shared stories, not moving your pieces around on a board.



#16 DeathFromAbove

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 10:22 PM

Breakthrugh games, rules speaking (imho):

 

Harnmaster (d100/d6)

Burning Wheel (d6 dice pool)

Tunnels & Trolls 7.5 (a very strange, fun to the death, system )

Silhouette core (d6 dice pool)

The Riddle of Steel (d10 dice pool)

Forgotten ones.

 

Some of this games are very old but still, I believe, very innovative.

Other games, aside these, are exceptional but use a classic tried and true system.

 

In addition, for me, innovative games are the ones that sheds new light on old mechanics. Exchenging a number for a an hammer, pretending to be the future of RPG, can lead to Choas .



#17 Silent Star

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 11:53 PM

NewTroski said:

Silent Star, what is your reasoning that this isn't an RPG? 

The short answer is: WFRPv3 is dependant on unneccesary boardgame mechanics.

A traditional RPG only REQUIRES a book, pen/paper, dice and you imagination. The ability to add visual aids to a system like that does not stop the game from being an RPG, because it can be played with only the bare minimum. However if a system is relient on Cards, Boards or whatever then it ceases to be a traditional RPG.

For example WFRPv2 could be played with miniatures however miniatures were not REQUIRED to play, so WFRPv2 is still an RPG. Whereas D&D4e REQUIRES a battle mat and miniatures to play properly, so D&D4e is a Tactical Combat game not an RPG.

If when WFRPv3 is released it emerges that all the extras are optional and the game can be fully played with just the Books, Dice, Pen and Paper then I will stand corrected and WFRPv3 would be an RPG.



#18 KjetilKverndokken

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 12:01 AM

What rpg is is a huge and wide topic - but essential anything thats involves players playing a role, is a form of rpg in different approaches.

Traditional or conservative rpg's are standard book, pen and dice. The malplaced name "indy" or rather Liberal RPG's often do not use any dice at al, a few uses cards. WHFRP 3 is in the middlepath, being a Traditional game, but with other types of tools.



#19 NewTroski

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 10:21 AM

I think that is a very limited definition of an RPG, and seems to create unnecessary elitism.  What about LARP games or other systems that use no dice at all?  I just don't see what good it can do to have a separatist mentality when the gaming industry is already struggling (primarily against video games).



#20 Loswaith

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 07:49 PM

Well saying a LARP is an RPG is kinda like saying a computer based RPG is an RPG.  Sure both contain role-playing elements but they still arent actually what is considered a Role-Playing Game but most people that play tabletop RPGs.

LARP is more like acting than a game which is why they are not called LARPG, its basically like the war time re-enactments of fictional occurances.

Is 3th ed an RPG in the general sence, sure it is, as much as say a MMORPG can be called one.  Does it fit the context of the 'typical' tabletop RPG (which is realy what is being debated), I havent come to a conclusive point either way as yet.

 

As for the dice system it has been done in an RPG before F.U.D.G.E, however its not to the complexity of the way they have 3rd ed.






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