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Learning from Experience >> A Look at Experience Points and Advancement in WFRP


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#1 ynnen

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 11:22 AM

I've posted a new designer diary, in which I discuss experience points, character development, career transitions, and other related topics.

http://new.fantasyfl...ws.asp?eidn=783



#2 donbaloo

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 01:36 PM

 Looks good.  I was hoping we'd see this diary entry soon.

Features I like:

-A minor reward for each session of play.

-Experience is story based.

-The option of advancing skills and other mechanics outside of your career at a slightly higher cost.

-Pretty slick, easy to understand method of advancing out of your career and into another.  I like the "cost = 4 advances minus the number of shared traits" idea.  Good stuff there.

Possibly don't like:

-What appears to be a rather significant reward for sticking it out to the end of a career.  

You get a permanent special ability, all your trained skills become specialized (not sure I understand this one fully), and a 1 advance cost reduction for moving into the next career.  That's some pretty significant mojo it sounds like to me.  It certainly sounds like a deterrent for career hopping, which I think is probably needed to some degree.  But if this is significant as it sounds I'd worry that perhaps my players would be less inclinced to go for the career change, even though it really fit with their character growth at the time, simply because of the mechanical benefits they'd be passing up.  I look forward to hearing or reading more about this part.  I like the idea of there being a significant decision to be made on the players part as to whether or not to change careers at specific times in the game.  But if the reward for sticking it out is extremely great, it might effectively take the option off the table for players.

Again, looking good and I'm still pretty pumped about seeing more!



#3 chojun

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:32 PM

so you have 10 advances that correspond to the numbers on the career sheet.  so the careers with a zero under wounds would have to purchase a non career advance.  and if they have a 2 under skills that means they can get two skill cards?

or am i just guessing here?



#4 donbaloo

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:41 PM

 Yes, that's my impression as well.  Except that the number under Skills is the number of your career skills you can train in.  Looks like there's always four or five career skills available, but only 2 or 3 allowed advances to be spent there.

I wondering though, is there a way to advance your characteristics or whatever they're called here: Strength, Intelligence, etc.?

And also, do we know exactly what it means to "train" a skill?  Jay explains specialization a bit, but what does training mean?  Up till now I've been thinking that each skill could have several ranks or whatever.  So I might have a Folklore score of 3 maybe, so I'd always roll 3 yellow expertise dice when I use Folklore.  So is there training and/or rank increase?  And then specialization beyond that?



#5 chojun

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:54 PM

i think if you have the skill you get to roll a yellow dice with it, and if you are specialized you get a fortune dice with it as well.  but this is a straight up guess.



#6 donbaloo

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 03:10 PM

chojun said:

i think if you have the skill you get to roll a yellow dice with it, and if you are specialized you get a fortune dice with it as well.  but this is a straight up guess.

Ah.  Hmmm, this would be a major setback for me being able to gel with the system.  That would mean that your parent stat (strength, intelligence, etc.) is always more important than your level of training  in the skill.  I don't care as much for systems with this philosophy.  Just personal preference.



#7 jadrax

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 03:27 PM

donbaloo said:

 

That would mean that your parent stat (strength, intelligence, etc.) is always more important than your level of training  in the skill.  I don't care as much for systems with this philosophy.  Just personal preference.

I am not sure the skill dice has any blank sides, so it can only add a success, boon or success and additional roll.



#8 donbaloo

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 04:21 PM

 Yeah, after rethinking it I realized that the Yellow die is bringing a different weight to the roll than the stats.  Anyway, I opened another thread so as not to clutter this one too much with my skills question.  Thanks though!



#9 Redcrow

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 04:37 PM

My biggest concern is the list of Races listed at the top of each card to which the career is available. 

How is this going to work when Halflings (or other races) are added to the game through expansions?  Will they have their own completely separate career cards, and if so how many are just going to duplicate existing career cards?  I don't really like the idea of buying an expansion that adds a new race (like Halflings) and then most of the career cards that come with it are just duplicates of the career cards from the Core Set except for a picture of the new race on it.



#10 Sunatet

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 12:08 AM

Ynnen
Since You stated at the end of current diary, that in the next step You will give us more feedback on how dice system works, I would like to ask you to include one thing.
How much dices I will need to roll?
I mean the minimum number of dice any player, or GM ever has to roll (with lowest attributes, minimum skill, minimum additional effects). The same on average level, and maximum level.
I would like to have a glimpse on the spread between minimum and maximum dices to roll. Three simple numbers will do (min, avg, max).



#11 ynnen

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 02:42 AM

A bit of clarification to hopefully counter some confusion about skills, training, and specialisation. I'll share this for now -- but more information will likely be forthcoming in a future designer diary.

When a skill is trained, a check mark is made next to the skill on the character sheet. For each training box checked off, the character adds one of the yellow six-sided expertise dice to the corresponding skill checks.

A skill specialisation is further knowledge and training in a specific aspect of the broader skill. Sample specialisations are listed with each of the skills. Specialisation allows a character to add an additional white six-sided fortune die to checks when that specialisation is relevant.

For example, a Dilettante character may have Charm trained once (one box is checked off on the trained list), which provides one expertise die to all Charm checks. Over the course of his career, the Dilettante acquires one Charm specialisation in Gossip and one Charm specialisation in Etiquette.

If the Dilettante makes a Charm check that is based on either Gossip or Etiquette, he gets to roll one yellow expertise die for one rank of Charm training, as well as an additional white fortune die for the relevant specialisation.



#12 donbaloo

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 03:43 AM

 Ah, very nice Jay and thanks for clearing that up for me.  As I said, I like the idea of being able to train up in skill ranks.  Sounds good!!



#13 brian bloodaxe

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 06:59 AM

I like the mechanics for career transitions, as they promote a sense of realism which in turn allows me and my fellow players to immerse ourselves more deeply thus creating more enjoyment (albeit on a small level in this case but things really add up).


However is it just me who worries, about the imbalance caused by the dedication bonus, there’s obviously the realism problem, as it appears to give a bonus worth 5 advances at a point in the game which the PC’s could have only received a total of 11 advances. That makes them almost 50 % better with one advance point!!!            Not only that but an extra special ability. And don’t forget this bonus applies to the character that needs the boost least.


Before anyone says it I realise that the other PC’s are likely to be advancing at similar times. But what about PC’s whose career changes have been less compatible? Or who have spent points on non-career advances? Finally the combat challenge for monsters could increase making all but the most advanced characters suffer. This could be a likely outcome as combat focused characters tend to advance most quickly
 



#14 theyoungmaster

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 02:21 PM

The experience system looks great to me. I especially like the ability of the character to take advances out of his career. My main concern is about the sentance that follows:

If a character stays with his current career and completes all ten of the available advances from the Advancement Worksheet, he is rewarded for his diligence. First, that career’s special ability becomes a permanent character ability.

It sounds like a character has a special ability for his career that he can loose if he does'nt complete the career, only becoming permanent when the careers complete. I'm hoping I misunderstood this sentance, because it makes no sense for a character to be able to do something and then forget how because he changes careers.

The other concern I have is that all the careers weve seen so far are basic. Are there any advance careers in the core set? 



#15 sudden real

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 04:03 PM

theyoungmaster said:

It sounds like a character has a special ability for his career that he can loose if he does'nt complete the career, only becoming permanent when the careers complete. I'm hoping I misunderstood this sentance, because it makes no sense for a character to be able to do something and then forget how because he changes careers.

You make it sound like the special ability is shooting lasers out of their eyes or something. I think this "special ability" is more of a "routine". Something they've gotten used to during their career, they can do it without a problem.

For example: Joe and Billy-Bob both start their career as Burger Flippers (basic career), After a few weeks, Joe decides it's not for him and changes career, while Billy-Bob sticks with it until the end. As a result, Billy-Bob still remembers how to look for the signs when the burger is just right and gets his extra die when cooking, but Joe hasn't because he didn't stick around long enough for it to become routine. Alan, on the other hand, is a Programmer (advanced career) who gets the Debugging special ability at the end of his career, because during his career, he learned where the troublespots usually are from his experience. Every one who's been something a long time, picks up stuff he remembers for the rest of their life because they became routine, while people who quit that career never picked up to that extent and thus forgets them.

For me it makes sense, and I hope, with these examples, it does too for you.



#16 macd21

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 11:00 PM

sudden real said:

For example: Joe and Billy-Bob both start their career as Burger Flippers (basic career), After a few weeks, Joe decides it's not for him and changes career, while Billy-Bob sticks with it until the end. As a result, Billy-Bob still remembers how to look for the signs when the burger is just right and gets his extra die when cooking, but Joe hasn't because he didn't stick around long enough for it to become routine. Alan, on the other hand, is a Programmer (advanced career) who gets the Debugging special ability at the end of his career, because during his career, he learned where the troublespots usually are from his experience. Every one who's been something a long time, picks up stuff he remembers for the rest of their life because they became routine, while people who quit that career never picked up to that extent and thus forgets them.

That's how I see it too. I used to work in an IT section for a few months. I picked up some skills there, stuff I did every day, but I didn't stay long enough to truly internalise it. Had I worked there for a year I'd probably still know those Unix commands... (not that I miss 'em).



#17 Ravelli

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 05:01 AM

sudden real said:

theyoungmaster said:

 

It sounds like a character has a special ability for his career that he can loose if he does'nt complete the career, only becoming permanent when the careers complete. I'm hoping I misunderstood this sentance, because it makes no sense for a character to be able to do something and then forget how because he changes careers.

 

 

You make it sound like the special ability is shooting lasers out of their eyes or something. I think this "special ability" is more of a "routine". Something they've gotten used to during their career, they can do it without a problem.

For example: Joe and Billy-Bob both start their career as Burger Flippers (basic career), After a few weeks, Joe decides it's not for him and changes career, while Billy-Bob sticks with it until the end. As a result, Billy-Bob still remembers how to look for the signs when the burger is just right and gets his extra die when cooking, but Joe hasn't because he didn't stick around long enough for it to become routine. Alan, on the other hand, is a Programmer (advanced career) who gets the Debugging special ability at the end of his career, because during his career, he learned where the troublespots usually are from his experience. Every one who's been something a long time, picks up stuff he remembers for the rest of their life because they became routine, while people who quit that career never picked up to that extent and thus forgets them.

For me it makes sense, and I hope, with these examples, it does too for you.

So far the only example we've been given is that of the Ratcatcher getting to keep his SBVD when he completes his career, and verily it didst stir much consternation ...

We really do need a few more concrete examples before we can judge the relative merit of this mechanic.



#18 Farin

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 06:00 PM

sudden real said:

For example: Joe and Billy-Bob both start their career as Burger Flippers (basic career), After a few weeks, Joe decides it's not for him and changes career, while Billy-Bob sticks with it until the end. As a result, Billy-Bob still remembers how to look for the signs when the burger is just right and gets his extra die when cooking, but Joe hasn't because he didn't stick around long enough for it to become routine. Alan, on the other hand, is a Programmer (advanced career) who gets the Debugging special ability at the end of his career, because during his career, he learned where the troublespots usually are from his experience. Every one who's been something a long time, picks up stuff he remembers for the rest of their life because they became routine, while people who quit that career never picked up to that extent and thus forgets them.

For me it makes sense, and I hope, with these examples, it does too for you.

 

Yeah thats a great example Dude!! I worked in a Contact Shipping Warehouse for 2 years.....i can still tell you EVERYTHING about contacts...ill never forget it thats special skill i have now, and it required fast recognition of numbers, that could be in my obervastion/ intelligence specialization.  again...everything time i read a diary, i just want the game more!!!






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