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The Future of WFRP 3ed


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#1 ffgfan

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 10:22 PM

Hi, a got a question to all of You and especiallcy to Mr Jay Little. What is the future of WFRP 3ed? Wtah will be reaseled after the coreset and Adventures Toolkit? maybe there are some plans what expansions will be realesed after that or maybe there are now some in development?

I would really like to se some expansions  like the ones from 2nd edition. On my list would be: Children Of The Hornet Rat, Old World Bestiary,  Sigmars Heir, Knights of the Graail and more.

Especially I would like to see some new titles like books for races: Halflings, Dwarf, Elves, Orcs and Lizardman.

 

There's only some thing that bothers me - what if, don't get me wrong, but what if WFRP 3e will not sale propatly? What if there will be not that much interest in the game, will it be taht after 2 maybe 3 years will have WFRP 3.5 or WFRP 4e? That bothers me but I hope that this will not hapen. I'm full of optymistic thoughts about the WFRP 3ed and I hope that it will be a bestseller taht many people will buy.

Maybe to clear the sytuation and wanish the black clouds from our heads, Mr. Jay could tell us how poeaple respond to WFRP 3ed? Are many of  them interested in buying it?

Will it be, like I think, a big hit? What do You all think? Will You buy it?



#2 James Sparrow

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:19 PM

I think there will be an initial burst of enthusiastic purchasing, followed by a lot of arguing and discussion, much the same as there was with WFRP2. Interest will fall off over a few years; the hard core fans will remain, but they won't be enough to make the game financially appealing to produce, so FFG does something else. So, the game will eventually die; the questions are, how successful will it be in that short period when it's worth FFG's time and resources to publish, and how long will that short period be?

A lot of the enthusiasm for this game seems to be coming from people with little experience of WFRP - it's very hard to judge how many people are just jumping on the bandwagon of The Next Big Thing and how many people are really interested in seeing WFRP improved. Will these people buy every supplement, or just the first one or two? Will they be eough to make the game a success? Given that I've never seen half the people here and on RPG.net who are enthusiastic for WFRP3 ever posting about WFRP before, I'm not convinced they're really that interested in WFRP.

I think the radically different approach to the rules means that a significant number of the existing core of fans will be put off, and these are people who theoretically would buy every supplement. What will persuade them to pursue WFRP3 it is whether the supplements that FFG produces are geared up to supporting the new game system or supporting the background and setting. The people who love the setting can houserule the new system, use either of the old editions, or use other systems entirely, so up to a point the system is a red herring. It comes down to the background and setting material, the NPCs that are real characters, locations that are living breathing places, plots that are convoluted, mysterious and intriguing. If FFG can get that right, then I think it will be around for a few years. Unfortunately, at this stage we nothing about that side of things.

Cheers

Sparrow

 



#3 Foolishboy

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 01:58 AM

ffgfan said:

I would really like to se some expansions  like the ones from 2nd edition. On my list would be: Children Of The Hornet Rat, Old World Bestiary,  Sigmars Heir, Knights of the Graail and more.

 

I think this would be the fastest way to kill WFRPv3. By just reprinting the same old information it will turn off almost every existing fan of Warhammer. Something that many people have commented on is that most of the people interested in WFRPv3 do not appear to be fans of WFRP or even fans of Warhammer in general. This means it is impossible to tell how loyal these new fans will be to the product range. However, I can't help but think that many of the Pro-WFRPv3 newbies seem to be attracted to a shinny box and logically if the WFRPv3 shinny box attracts them then the next company to bring out something shinny will take them away from FFG.

ffgfan said:

Especially I would like to see some new titles like books for races: Halflings, Dwarf, Elves, Orcs and Lizardman.

This option IMO (as I have mentioned before on other threads) is the best chance WFRPv3 has for success. Publishing new information was the method Black Industries used to draw in the fans. As Sparrow said people will ignore or houserule a rule system they do not like provided they like the background fluff.

As things stand interest in WFRPv3 seems to be like this:

  • A handful of existing fans are in favour of WFRPv3.
  • A fair number of newbies, many of whom appear to be board game players with little to no knowledge or interest in Warhammer are in favour of WFRPv3.
  • A fair number (including me) are sitting on the fence, not sure what to make of the new game.
  • A large number (which if forum opinion can be taken as a fair representation of overall opinion is in fact the majority) of the existing fans will not buy this game. 

 



#4 cogollo

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 02:15 AM

I still think the most important books that make an RPG a success are adventures and campaigns of good quality. I still think that's the reason why D&D is the RPG leader while its rules are average, sometimes even mediocre.

When WFRP 2nd edition was published, it came with "Plundered Vaults" and Paths of the Damned campaign. Maybe they were not the best adventures ever, but they allowed any newcomer to WFRP to start playing with almost no preparation. That's, in my opinion, the reason why 2nd edition was a success.

I would love to see a company like Paizo (which publishes 2-3 adventures for D&D 3.5 almost every month) do the same for WFRP. Adventures and scenarios are also great to add to the lore of the game (in this case Warhammer) and at the same time are full of ideas that any can use in other games, so they can attract even more buyers. I wish FFG would look at how Paizo publishes for D&D 3.5 and do a similar thing for WFRP 3rd edition.

In any case, I wish WFRP and its 3rd edition, a long life. Good luck, FFG!


Hur-Nir ran to the aid of the beaten man, recovering in the process a handful of pennies the thugs had let fall in the man's boots during their hasty retreat. - from Nulner Blues campaign

 


#5 42!

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 02:22 AM

cogollo said:

I still think the most important books that make an RPG a success are adventures and campaigns of good quality. I still think that's the reason why D&D is the RPG leader while its rules are average, sometimes even mediocre.

When WFRP 2nd edition was published, it came with "Plundered Vaults" and Paths of the Damned campaign. Maybe they were not the best adventures ever, but they allowed any newcomer to WFRP to start playing with almost no preparation. That's, in my opinion, the reason why 2nd edition was a success.

I would love to see a company like Paizo (which publishes 2-3 adventures for D&D 3.5 almost every month) do the same for WFRP. Adventures and scenarios are also great to add to the lore of the game (in this case Warhammer) and at the same time are full of ideas that any can use in other games, so they can attract even more buyers. I wish FFG would look at how Paizo publishes for D&D 3.5 and do a similar thing for WFRP 3rd edition.

In any case, I wish WFRP and its 3rd edition, a long life. Good luck, FFG!

I agree that a good campaign is a great way to get players hooked on a game and I think FFG knows this as one of the things they've said is that they'll release a campaign box as one of the first things. If the campaign is succesful then people will stick with the game and FFG will have a lot easier time selling more traditional setting/race books.

Besides it's always a good way to start a new game/edition to make a campaign that sets the mood and gives GMs something to run.

42!



#6 cogollo

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 02:34 AM

Some examples of what I said about adventures and campaigns:

1. Instead of a book about Orcs, why not a campaign that features an Orc invasion or Goblinoid attacks? Maybe the Orcs are attacking at the behest of one Noble that wishes to destroy an enemy or get more funds from the Empire to defend against the "invasion". During the different scenarios, lots of lore about Orcs and Goblinoids could be introduced in the books "à la Enemy WIthin".

2. Instead of a book about Undead, how about a campaign where the players are Vampire Hunters? It may start when their village is attacked by Zombies and they decide to avenge themselves. Scenario after scenario, the players would get involved with more powerful Undead and a lot of lore could be introduced.

3. Same thing with the Skavens. Here there could be a nasty plague or strange experiments, or simply trying to prove to the world that Skavens do exist (and some powerful Noble will oppose this for reasons of his own).

4. Chaos, cultists, thieves' guilds, .... the possibilities are endless.

I prefer the above: it gives more information and possibilities than just one lore book. Actually focusing too much in lorebooks and not enough on adventures+campaigns is, in my opinion, the reason why many very nice games don't have success... people get bored of buying lorebooks and completing a sort of "encyclopedia". Also, it gives more chances for FFG to keep selling books, thus augmenting the time they could keep publishing for the same edition (again, and sorry for repeating myself, look at Paizo's example with D&D 3.5).

In my case, I am very excited about WFRP so I'll buy all books that come out (as I did with 2nd edition) though I would prefer to see a bigger weight given to adventures and campaigns.


Hur-Nir ran to the aid of the beaten man, recovering in the process a handful of pennies the thugs had let fall in the man's boots during their hasty retreat. - from Nulner Blues campaign

 


#7 jadrax

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 04:09 AM

I don't think you will see a slew of (somewhat rushed) new books come out like under BI. It seems to me that FFG works at a slower pace as its not as reliant on fast sales.

I would imagine we may get one (or perhaps two) large box sets each year, and perhaps something smaller (Like the Adventurer's Toolkit) if there is an overspill of material.

Scenario Box sets I expect to be similar to those for Warhammer Quest, so it would contain a large campaign combined with a race sourcebook. In WFRP terms, it would be like buying Knights of the Grail and Barony of the Damned with a lot of extra bits, in a box.



#8 Jericho

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 05:12 AM

jadrax said:

I don't think you will see a slew of (somewhat rushed) new books come out like under BI. It seems to me that FFG works at a slower pace as its not as reliant on fast sales.

If FFG produces a very good campaign in a boxed set, à la Enemy Within, I would be pleased.

Remember the boxed set of the Death on the Reik chapter ? Lavish, full of beautiful handouts, maps...

It seems to me that FFG has the knowhow to do that kind o product very well.

That would be something new and that fans of all versions of WFRP would probably be willing to buy, if the adventures are good.


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#9 ymrar

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 05:52 AM

The problem with campaign and adventure books is, even with a very good one, that all the info they offer about the background, area etc. are related to the story of the book. Hence they tend to be a bit narrow. Which is the reason why the books usage is limited... Where a lore book gives you a more complete picture. Feeding you useful information for several different campaigns.

Don't get me wrong. There is a place for adventure books. Many people love them and use them. I usually buy a few of them to "rip" some good maps, encounters etc. for campaigns of my own (if the PCs happen to go to a direction where I can use them..).

Adventure books and lore books have always gone hand in hand. I see no reason for that to stop.



#10 Steerpike

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 07:13 AM

I think what remains to be seen is the extent to which the existing WFRPG fan base will be fractured by the new edition.  If there is a substantial rift, I don't think it will bode well.  It is important to keep as much as possible of the existing base because those are most of your loyal, ongoing fans, who won't just buy the core set and be on to the next newest game in a year.

So far it has been hard to judge this.  A lot of the discussion I've seen outside of this particular forum is decidedly mixed, with a decent portion of the 1e/2e players apparently not liking what they're seeing.  That said, we don't know enough about the new edition to know for sure how hard it will be to sway those people. 

Warhammer doesn't have the weight of the D&D name behind it.  I don't think WFRPG can afford to substantially split the fan base and hope to make it up with enthusiastic new players who have the staying power to keep the franchise alive.  I could be wrong, of course, but I think the level of acceptance by existing fans when this game releases will tell us a lot about how it is going to do in the long run.



#11 jadrax

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 07:20 AM

Steerpike said:

I think what remains to be seen is the extent to which the existing WFRPG fan base will be fractured by the new edition.  If there is a substantial rift, I don't think it will bode well.  It is important to keep as much as possible of the existing base because those are most of your loyal, ongoing fans, who won't just buy the core set and be on to the next newest game in a year.

So far it has been hard to judge this.  A lot of the discussion I've seen outside of this particular forum is decidedly mixed, with a decent portion of the 1e/2e players apparently not liking what they're seeing.  That said, we don't know enough about the new edition to know for sure how hard it will be to sway those people. 

Warhammer doesn't have the weight of the D&D name behind it.  I don't think WFRPG can afford to substantially split the fan base and hope to make it up with enthusiastic new players who have the staying power to keep the franchise alive.  I could be wrong, of course, but I think the level of acceptance by existing fans when this game releases will tell us a lot about how it is going to do in the long run.

There are issues of compatibility as well, while people may not have wanted to move to WFRP2 from WFRP1, the fact that rules where essentially the same meant that anything fan produced for the first edition could normally be used for the second with minimal issues. Hence almost anyone supporting WFRP1 was supporting WFRP2 regardless of their wishes.

If WFRP3 is a uncompatable as people are speculating, and fans continue to churn out stuff predomanently for the first two editions, this edition may have problems selling itself. This could be especially true if one or more compeating games come out using the old system.



#12 Steerpike

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 07:26 AM

jadrax said:

There are issues of compatibility as well, while people may not have wanted to move to WFRP2 from WFRP1, the fact that rules where essentially the same meant that anything fan produced for the first edition could normally be used for the second with minimal issues. Hence almost anyone supporting WFRP1 was supporting WFRP2 regardless of their wishes.

 

If WFRP3 is a uncompatable as people are speculating, and fans continue to churn out stuff predomanently for the first two editions, this edition may have problems selling itself. This could be especially true if one or more compeating games come out using the old system.

I agree.  In fact, that's a big issue for me.  Even if I like the new system and end up buying it, if much of what our group already has is rendered unusable in large part, the question then becomes not whether 3e is a good game, but whether it is so amazingly good that it dwarfs previous editions and is enough to make us start over and replace all our 2e resources with 3e resources.  If the game doesn't reach that level, then I expect we'll continue to play using our 2e materials indefinitely. 

So whereas for someone completely new to WFRPG the choice to buy 3e may be obvious, 3e has a much higher hurdle to leap when it comes to converting existing players who have a wealth of 2e material.



#13 cogollo

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:50 AM

ymrar said:

The problem with campaign and adventure books is, even with a very good one, that all the info they offer about the background, area etc. are related to the story of the book. Hence they tend to be a bit narrow. Which is the reason why the books usage is limited... Where a lore book gives you a more complete picture. Feeding you useful information for several different campaigns.

Don't get me wrong. There is a place for adventure books. Many people love them and use them. I usually buy a few of them to "rip" some good maps, encounters etc. for campaigns of my own (if the PCs happen to go to a direction where I can use them..).

Adventure books and lore books have always gone hand in hand. I see no reason for that to stop.

I agree with your post, though keep in mind that the lore offered as background in adventures does not necessarily need to be only related to the story of the book: it could be a bit more general. For example, a campaign about Undead Hunters could feature new classes, actions and equipment for the hunters as well as new Undead to fight and some lore tied to the plot with which you can introduce to the players some WFRP lore.

After reading your comment and several others, I think a very good idea would be for FFG to publish box sets with several adventures tied with a lore book related to the adventures. I guess the problem here would be the price, but it could work if their publishing strategy is similar to that for Descent, one expansion box every year. For an RPG like WFRP maybe they could get away with one per semester.

Still, my favourite strategy would be for them to publish a monthly adventure or scenario, at least short ones in PDF format that you could buy relatively cheap. I enjoy a lot fan made scenarios (and I have created some adventures for my campaigns), but when you get something done by professionals, the quality really shows (and you can always alter the bits you don't like and improve on the adventure).


Hur-Nir ran to the aid of the beaten man, recovering in the process a handful of pennies the thugs had let fall in the man's boots during their hasty retreat. - from Nulner Blues campaign

 


#14 Requete

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:58 AM

Hopefully someone will rerelease the core mechanics for 2e under the OGL. That way, 3rd parties can publish material for it.

 



#15 Steerpike

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 12:39 PM

Requete said:

Hopefully someone will rerelease the core mechanics for 2e under the OGL. That way, 3rd parties can publish material for it.

 

You don't need an OGL for core game mechanics.  Game rules per se are not subject to copyright protection (at least in the U.S.).



#16 jadrax

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 01:12 PM

Steerpike said:

 

 

 

You don't need an OGL for core game mechanics.  Game rules per se are not subject to copyright protection (at least in the U.S.).

You don't need it, but it means that anyone who wants can then copy your text wholesale and thus encourages everyone to pool resources.



#17 Jericho

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 03:16 PM

ymrar said:

The problem with campaign and adventure books is, even with a very good one, that all the info they offer about the background, area etc. are related to the story of the book. Hence they tend to be a bit narrow. Which is the reason why the books usage is limited... Where a lore book gives you a more complete picture. Feeding you useful information for several different campaigns.

I agree with you that fluff in adventure books will be related to the adventure. Of course. But why is that a problem ?

The reason games produce fluff books more than adventures is that fluff can be a worthwhile buy for many players and gms. It is general enough and thus can be used by people playing many different styles of campaigns. It's a logical sell. Also, these are easier to write. Why ? Because they do not need to create dramatic tension, they are just basically inventories of what you will find in this or that region/race/profession. Of course, good writing is always hard, but for a competent writer, I think coming up with a good plot, with twists and all, is the hardest proposition.

This said, a good campaign can really get the fanbase excited about the game, its tone, the way the story is written, the humour of it, the gore whatever. A good campaign can give everyone an idea of what WFRP should be. For what kind of story is it best suited. How can you use the rules and settings in an original and creative way to write an adventure.

TEW was great to teach all the GMs out there the special brand of WFRP dark humour. No supplement could do it as well. THe action, the NPCs, the gory discoveries, everything in TEW (right from SoB) made you experience the difference of WFRP. The specific and unique aspects of this game. What separates it from other fantasy RPGs.

Cities will be cities, wars will be wars, secret cults secret cults. Until you meet them up close in an adventure, you can't know how a WFRP city, war or cult will really be like. That's the use of adventures and campaigns.

I agree that these supplements are a risky venture business wise, but they can really push the enthusiasm up and bring new players in the game. Just like Grayhawk, Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft did for D&D. All of these settings had numerous published adventures to play.


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The time of change has come!

#18 cogollo

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 11:09 PM

Jericho said:

ymrar said:

 

TEW was great to teach all the GMs out there the special brand of WFRP dark humour. No supplement could do it as well. THe action, the NPCs, the gory discoveries, everything in TEW (right from SoB) made you experience the difference of WFRP. The specific and unique aspects of this game. What separates it from other fantasy RPGs.
 

I still remember my players spending 5-6 sessions trying to hit rich with the boat they found in Death of the Reik. That made for lots of fun, shady dealers, smuggling, pirates encounters, encounters with corrupt river guards, near misses in locks and sluicegates,...

Related to this, in my opinion, The Thousand Thrones was a step in the right direction (you can hardly get grimmer than that) but they tried to get too much adventure information in just one book so sometimes the result seems rushed and with insufficient information. I would have prefered BI to divide the campaign in 4-5 books and include extra lore and game mechanics in each of them.

Maybe the "extra goodies" 3rd edition will come with will move FFG towards this kind of campaigns... at least that's my wish.


Hur-Nir ran to the aid of the beaten man, recovering in the process a handful of pennies the thugs had let fall in the man's boots during their hasty retreat. - from Nulner Blues campaign

 


#19 Loswaith

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 02:02 AM

Well one thing I think FFG will have to do is release an Elf book, given half their PC race choices are Elves.   If its overlooked they are just shooting themselves in the foot, especially since they are totuting they added extra elves to give them some more dues.

 



#20 Foolishboy

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:05 AM

Loswaith said:

Well one thing I think FFG will have to do is release an Elf book, given half their PC race choices are Elves.   If its overlooked they are just shooting themselves in the foot, especially since they are totuting they added extra elves to give them some more dues.

 

The elves does seem a strange choice. I haven't done a poll or anything but the general impression that Warhammer fans have always given me is that Elves were the least popular race often even Ogres were prefered.






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