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'This card cannot be cancelled' + Cancelling a card when exhausted


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#1 Destrin

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:11 AM

 PG 29: Calculate Strength: c. Both players now add up the cumulative strength cost of all cards in their combat stack. If this total exceeds the combatant’s strength, that combatant immediately becomes exhausted and his card is canceled.

How does this interact with cards like 'Quick Shot' or 'Block' which state 'This card cannot be cancelled'?  Does the cancel caused by exhaustion overrule the fact that the card cannot be cancelled, or is this a case of the combatant using the very last reserves of their strength to defend/attack.  Since they are NOW exhausted, they would not be able to play any more cards, I'm inclined to think that the card takes precedence and that even though they have exceeded their strength, the card is not cancelled.



#2 Dam

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:25 AM

I think this bit should kick in:

"When a player becomes exhausted during Calculate Strength
(part c), the Combat card he just played is canceled (meaning that
the attack and defense is reduced to zero and any ability on the
card is ignored)." (p. 32)

Ability is ignored, so the card can be cancelled.


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#3 Destrin

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:39 AM

Dam said:

Ability is ignored, so the card can be cancelled.

That get's very circular.  On that basis, no card that has 'this card cannot be cancelled' will EVER work, because by cancelling it, you are ignoring it's text and thus it CAN be cancelled even though it says it can't ;).  Specifically, since the heroes card text is always resolved first, this would mean that all 'the card cannot be cancelled' text on the monster decks was useless, this cannot be the case.

The rulebook doesn't seem to delineate between 'cancelled as a result of running out of strength' and 'cancelled because of card your opponent plays' which is what makes me think the card should still be playable.



#4 Dam

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:51 AM

Destrin said:

That get's very circular.  On that basis, no card that has 'this card cannot be cancelled' will EVER work, because by cancelling it, you are ignoring it's text and thus it CAN be cancelled even though it says it can't ;).  Specifically, since the heroes card text is always resolved first, this would mean that all 'the card cannot be cancelled' text on the monster decks was useless, this cannot be the case.

 

The rulebook doesn't seem to delineate between 'cancelled as a result of running out of strength' and 'cancelled because of card your opponent plays' which is what makes me think the card should still be playable.

 

 

I see a difference in the "Cancel" under Combat Keywords (specifically referring to combat abilities) and cancelled through exhaustion. In fact, the bit I quoted referred to the step C in the combat sequence. The abilities of the cards played don't get applied until step E:

"e. Current Round Abilities: All abilities from cards that
were played during this round are now resolved, first by the
hero and then by Sauron." (p. 29)

Until step E, they are just cards, their texts aren't taken into account, thus are cancelled if you exhaust. Just my reading of course.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#5 Destrin

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 01:38 AM

Dam said:

Until step E, they are just cards, their texts aren't taken into account, thus are cancelled if you exhaust. Just my reading of course.

Hmm, this is a very good point and hadn't occurred to me, having the exhaustion cancel the card (in step c) before the card text is applied (in step e) would imply that cards cancelled to exhaustion don't take effect.  I'm now slightly more swayed towards the idea that even cards that can't be cancelled CAN be cancelled by exhaustion...I think there is an argument for both sides but I think your reading is a very good one!



#6 Macronx

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:02 AM

Using Dam's logic that a card is just a card until step (e) may sound reasonable, and solves the exhaustion issue, I don't really think it's the right interpretation for all cases. Here's why (IMO):

Cards can be canceled during step © by exceeding strength, step (d) by Rush or Fall Back, for example, or step (e) by Evade, among others. Since every one of these would happen before the monster's combat card is resolved, there would be no point in having such a card with the "cannot be canceled" text. Therefore, it seems to me that the designers must have intended that a Behemoth's Sweep card (for instance) would not be canceled by a hero's Fall Back or Evade.

I also think that exhaustion is intended to cancel a card even though it may have "cannot be canceled" on it; you're exhausted, after all.

In this respect, I agree with Destrin.

So, although I can see both sides of this issue, I'll play that exhaustion can cancel cards like Sweep, but cards like Evade or Fall Back can't, as it just seems "logical" to me. At least until an official ruling is made.

 



#7 Dam

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 07:45 PM

Don't have to game (yet), so have no idea on the wordings of the cards.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#8 Macronx

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 11:20 AM

The FAQ (v 0.1) is up and says "cannot be canceled" cards that cause exhaustion have attack 0 and defense 0, so they are indeed canceled in this case.

It does not address the "timing" issue, but I still think it's likely that "cannot be canceled" means it can't be canceled once you're past step ©.

In addition, two cards can cancel each other (see page 29, 2nd column). So even then, the hero-first timing is not always set in stone. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of a situation where the timing rule would come into play.






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