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Price Point, and why it's not crazy.


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#1 Atendarius

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 02:34 PM

Has anyone complaining about the price even played an RPG before? Seriously? Even 4E D&D is going to cost you $75 for the three main rulebooks that aren't in hardcover. And even though people can say as much as they want that you don't need all three to get the full game experience you really do.

$100 for four full colour rulebooks (that are surely incredibly high quality), along with everything else the game needs except a pencil. How is that a problem? Hobbies are expensive if you want quality brand name things. 

I'm a videogamer and I have to pay over half the price of the WFRPG 3E core set for a single game that'll last me a week or if I'm lucky a month. While an RPG could last me years. Be happy the RPG hobby is so cheap.



#2 Silent Star

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 02:38 PM

The difference as several posts have already mentioned is that you can spread the cost over several weeks/months and you can buy a book for say $35 read it think it's rubbish never buy anything again. With WFRPv3 your being asked to pay $100 up front with no real idea of what your getting and the hints are that expansion sets will be needed to create a complete game system.



#3 Emirikol

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 02:54 PM

How much was the players box going to be?  $40 

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#4 lordmalachdrim

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 03:36 PM

I've played and bought many RPGs over the years and always thought that D&D was on the expensive side. Many of the games I've bought are single core book games. Not the three book set up of D&D.



#5 DagobahDave

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 04:15 PM

Silent Star said:

 

The difference as several posts have already mentioned is that you can spread the cost over several weeks/months and you can buy a book for say $35 read it think it's rubbish never buy anything again. With WFRPv3 your being asked to pay $100 up front with no real idea of what your getting and the hints are that expansion sets will be needed to create a complete game system.

 

 

FFG has really great previews of their games, and I'd expect the same for WFRP3. And there will be loads of "sell me" threads on RPGnet and elsewhere to help you make a decision.

And I'm not sure that $100 is really a lot of money any more. I think most GMs do the buying for their groups, and maybe (in spite of the kind of toy-like appeal of the "game pieces") the game is targeted not at younger players necessarily -- but their parents who will buy the game for them, and for old farts like me, and maybe you, and a lot of other Warhammer enthusiasts creeping toward middle age.


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#6 GreyLord

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 05:13 PM

Atendarius said:

Has anyone complaining about the price even played an RPG before? Seriously? Even 4E D&D is going to cost you $75 for the three main rulebooks that aren't in hardcover. And even though people can say as much as they want that you don't need all three to get the full game experience you really do.

$100 for four full colour rulebooks (that are surely incredibly high quality), along with everything else the game needs except a pencil. How is that a problem? Hobbies are expensive if you want quality brand name things. 

I'm a videogamer and I have to pay over half the price of the WFRPG 3E core set for a single game that'll last me a week or if I'm lucky a month. While an RPG could last me years. Be happy the RPG hobby is so cheap.

 

WHY AS A PLAYER would I ever get all three books for D&D?  Am I wanting to metagame or something rather than Roleplay?  I got the 4e book for $25.  That's 1/4 of what it's going to cost for this new version of warhammer and NO, I'm not going to pay some other person a 1/4 share of $25 in order to buy THEM a copy and play it, if they want a copy they pay their entire $100 for it, and maybe we'll play it if we like how they present it.

You seem to be in the class of having to get the newest stuff, I have a PS3 (which WAS expensive I'll admit) and only pay around 20 to 25 dollars for a game, but then, I'm patient like that and can wait till the price comes down a bit.  I do d/l a lot of demos though and I used to also be in the class of getting all things new, still do occasionally, but Videogaming is probably a bad example as with a little patience, the games WILL come down in price, so if one spends money for the latest fad...and it dies quickly, well they're the ones who were wasting money they could have saved if they just waited a bit till the next big fad came to the market.

Maybe I'm one of the few that are cheapskates (though I have an odd way of showing since I continually buy FFG games and the expansions that go with them), and I WILL pay over half the price for a boardgame (heck, I'm looking at $80 for MEQ alone right now), but I tend to look at what I consider value, and for an RPG I have never paid $100 just to see how it is and whether I'll like it.  I might rip off a ton of money for a boardgame but I tend to be more conservative with RPGs and most other things.

If anything, from what they've presented, I'd pay $100 to play this new WFRP as a boardgame...but as an RPG...probably not.  I like RPG's that are portable, adaptable, and I can pick up dice that I have lying at any gamer's house to play.  This doesn't seem to fit that bill, oddly enough, even with accusations of it being a boardgame, D&D4e fits the bill better, and I got everything to play that game with a $25 down for the PHB.



#7 Redclock

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 06:17 PM

A few of us briefly discussed this at the local game shop and thought $100 was a bit steep until we read the full description and did some simple math.  Four books means designed for four or more people.  $100 divided between four people is only $25 each, less if you have more friends.  From what I saw of it so far, it seems this is the business model they are currently working with, similar to the LCG Core sets which is everything two people need to play in one box.  If you don't have anyone willing to split the cost with you, it is much more expensive.  With dice, cards and books it seems so far to be a very reasonable price.  Final decisions on the product will have to wait for its release, but so far it appears this may well be worth the cost.

As far as the comparison to D&D, why should the players only have to buy one book and expect someone else to buy three?  Sorry, but the cost of GMing is generally higher than playing and anything to alleviate that cost is something I'm in favor of.  For the record, I'm frugal, not cheap.  Also, I'm trying to figure out how having everything in one box is not portable, as opposed to the bag I usually use to carry my RPG books, dice, character sheets, pencils, etc.



#8 jadrax

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:04 PM

Silent Star said:

The difference as several posts have already mentioned is that you can spread the cost over several weeks/months and you can buy a book for say $35 read it think it's rubbish never buy anything again. With WFRPv3 your being asked to pay $100 up front with no real idea of what your getting and the hints are that expansion sets will be needed to create a complete game system.

There is also the all important Gift Threshold. Asking you relatives to buy you one 20 quid book each is a lot easier than asking them to club together and get you a 60 quid box set.

I don't think the high price is the end of the world, but it is also silly to pretend it will have no effect on people.



#9 LordofEndTimes

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:24 PM

If I want anyone to play this game, I(!) have to pay the 100$! It not 25$ times 4! You seem to be around some very nice and generous people who apparently doesn't mind to give you money so you can buy the set. What if someone doesn't want to play with the rest group after a while? Do you divide the book and dice in 4 and give them their fair share, and thus render the game unplayable? It doesn't work that way for me or anyone else I know.

 

A 100$ is having a big impact on my approach to this game. I want to check it out, but no way am I going to pay 100$ (500+ Kroner!) for a game I don't even no if I like- it's having an effect on me that's for sure. I am not used to buy boardgames, but rpgs, and I think that 60$ for an unknown game is pushing it, a 100$ is not going to happen.

 



#10 Atendarius

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:31 PM

I think a free online sample of how the game plays would be a good idea to help people who want to try it but aren't willing to shell out $100 to see if they like it in play. It would no doubt be simplefied, but I have faith that FFG could give us a good sample experience. 



#11 Fabs

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:01 AM

Yup, I'm sure FFG will drip feed us information to build us up to fever pitch by the release date.

Well .. I don't really do 'fever pitch' these days, but I can do a very good 'quite interested and will have a look'

And then there will be plenty of reviews and breakdowns so anyone who is unsure of parting with thier cash can see exactly what they would be getting. Along with 99% of the population of these boards I am nervous of the $99.95 price tag dissuading people from making that inital gateway purchase, but I think times are changing. I think FFG probably have a better idea than anyone when the market prefers a 'all-in-one high-production-value set' than otherwise. I wish 'em luck with it, it is a buisness change.

But .. I remember in the 80's during the boom of RPGs every single RPG (except AD&D) was sold as a box set with a few books, wierd dice, reference sheets and cut out stand up figures. Did us no harm - in fact I quite miss it - I find it a little bit pretentious how everything has to be a hardback book now. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for my youth.

(Some of this I said on another thread, but it didn't appear - apologies if it's appeared now and I'm repeating myself)



#12 TredHed

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 03:02 AM

But the problem with this argument (Price point not being crazy) is that you only NEED 3 books for D&D. With the PHB, DMG, and MM, you can run a game with an infinite amount of players. WFRP3e you can run only 3 players out of the gate, and you have an added expense for EACH additional player. The reason I compare this to D&D is that I think the D&D game is rather expensive, and that is something that can be bought in small chunks. Add this to the fact that this is just the core set.....PLEASE dont tell me each expansion will work the same way (only enough for a GM and 3 players).

Dont get me wrong, I REALLY want to play and run this, but its gonna be a big hit to the hobby fund. One that may push my buy in back quite a bit and may get my interest to wane enough to push the game off for quite a bit.

 

 



#13 Luther

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 05:41 AM

Fabs said:

 

But .. I remember in the 80's during the boom of RPGs every single RPG (except AD&D) was sold as a box set with a few books, wierd dice, reference sheets and cut out stand up figures. Did us no harm - in fact I quite miss it - I find it a little bit pretentious how everything has to be a hardback book now. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for my youth.

 

 

I, too, like the old box sets and miss them mightily, but I have to point out one major difference between those and the WFRP one: about $80. Even accounting for inflation, that's a huge jump and one I'm not willing to make, and wouldn't even if the system was an update of the 1E/2E system and not a completely different game.

The only time I spend $100 on anything is for my yearly birthday purchase of a new boardgame and all the supplements for it (usually from FFG, funnily enough).

But that's for boardgames and I'd never spend that much on an RPG, especially the 'intro' package for an RPG...



#14 jasonmichael

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 06:08 AM

Luther said:

I, too, like the old box sets and miss them mightily, but I have to point out one major difference between those and the WFRP one: about $80. Even accounting for inflation, that's a huge jump and one I'm not willing to make, and wouldn't even if the system was an update of the 1E/2E system and not a completely different game.

Not really.  Inflation covers a large portion of it.  Couple in the quailty of the components.  The old red box D&D set was very poor quality compared to todays high quality, full cover sets.  Remember the cover art for the boxed sets?  That's the norm for inside art as well these days.  Sure, $100 is expensive, but all told, it's cheaper than any other RPG that FFG puts out.



#15 Luther

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 06:21 AM

jasonmichael said:

Luther said:

 

I, too, like the old box sets and miss them mightily, but I have to point out one major difference between those and the WFRP one: about $80. Even accounting for inflation, that's a huge jump and one I'm not willing to make, and wouldn't even if the system was an update of the 1E/2E system and not a completely different game.

 

 

Not really.  Inflation covers a large portion of it.  Couple in the quailty of the components.  The old red box D&D set was very poor quality compared to todays high quality, full cover sets.  Remember the cover art for the boxed sets?  That's the norm for inside art as well these days.  Sure, $100 is expensive, but all told, it's cheaper than any other RPG that FFG puts out.

I was speraking in general, not just about D&D. What about Marvel Super Heroes? Or Gangbusters? Or any number of other boxed games that had a metric butt-ton of materials in them? All of those ran about $20 andinflation really can't cover an $80 jump. $20, maybe, but $80?

As for fancier materials, that is the result of technological advances which make such things cheaper, that is why they are in the box. You just couldn't afford to do materials of that quality in the 1980's because they were so cost-prohibitive to produce. These days, I can produce better quality material on my home computer and printer than could feasibly be produced in a boxed game from the 80's.

I can accept that inflation and the cost of technology and materials might bump it up a small portion, but the fact is, $100 for an intro game is pretty friggin' steep...



#16 GreyLord

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:05 AM

Well for a comparison, let's do the introductory sets for D&D.

The first version of the D&D 3.5e basic set was ~$20, or you could normally pick it up for that amount.  In it you had all the tiles and minis to run the game, had enough minis for four players, and if you decided NOT to use the minis, enough information for any size group with free form play and the ability for random dungeons if you really wanted to.

The second version (Blue Dragon) could also be found pretty cheap between 20 and 30 USD.  It had more specific characters you had to play and not as free form, but had enough minis for four players and enough characters for four players, everything included in the box.

The new Starter set for 4e has everything you need in the box, no minis, but you do have tokens, and that's represented in the cut in cost...originally you could pick it up for as cheap as ~$12 and now for ~17 USD.  You can have players up to five, or if you are willing to have characters that are the same with different names, unlimited characters.  You have enough for a full on basic RPG with unlimited dungeon creation ability and monsters that will carry you for quite a while in playing.

In comparison, WotC has a better price point and in most of the above cases, better match for playing groups than what they've advertise thus far for WFRP.

Why would a new player choose WFRP over the starter set of 4e?  It certainly won't be due to cost.



#17 42!

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:22 AM

TredHed said:

But the problem with this argument (Price point not being crazy) is that you only NEED 3 books for D&D. 

Sure you can run a game with only the 3 books but you don't get an actual setting to play in and will have to make almost everything up yourself - if you want to play in a specific world you'll need at least one book more to do that (and sometimes more).

So for the typical DM DnD 4e is a 4 book game.

42!



#18 steamdriven

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:42 AM

right now I see no reason to pay £60(ish) for a game I can run using 2nd ed. do we really need this box set? the rule set works fine as is, well we will have to see if it is worth the price and if i get a copy, it better be the best damn system ever writen! and that no joking matter, no one wants to pay that amount for a freaking ill edited mess that runs like an 8 year old came up with it (i'm looking at you D&D!)



#19 jasonmichael

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 04:31 PM

Luther said:

 

I was speraking in general, not just about D&D. What about Marvel Super Heroes? Or Gangbusters? Or any number of other boxed games that had a metric butt-ton of materials in them? All of those ran about $20 andinflation really can't cover an $80 jump. $20, maybe, but $80?

As for fancier materials, that is the result of technological advances which make such things cheaper, that is why they are in the box. You just couldn't afford to do materials of that quality in the 1980's because they were so cost-prohibitive to produce. These days, I can produce better quality material on my home computer and printer than could feasibly be produced in a boxed game from the 80's.

I can accept that inflation and the cost of technology and materials might bump it up a small portion, but the fact is, $100 for an intro game is pretty friggin' steep...

I didn't say, nor suggest, that inflation would cover $80.  Rather, inflation would cover a portion, along with the increase in the quality of the components.  As far as the component qualities being easier, it's not really true, at least not from a printing point of view.  My wife is in the industry.  Full color with the paper quality that FFG puts out isn't cheap.

I also wasn't speaking about just D&D, but consider the price of WFRP's biggest competition, and it's easy to see how, if WFRP is everything you need and not just a simple starter set (as they are billing it), then it's less expensive by far.



#20 jasonmichael

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 04:36 PM

GreyLord said:

Well for a comparison, let's do the introductory sets for D&D.

The first version of the D&D 3.5e basic set was ~$20, or you could normally pick it up for that amount.  In it you had all the tiles and minis to run the game, had enough minis for four players, and if you decided NOT to use the minis, enough information for any size group with free form play and the ability for random dungeons if you really wanted to.

The second version (Blue Dragon) could also be found pretty cheap between 20 and 30 USD.  It had more specific characters you had to play and not as free form, but had enough minis for four players and enough characters for four players, everything included in the box.

The new Starter set for 4e has everything you need in the box, no minis, but you do have tokens, and that's represented in the cut in cost...originally you could pick it up for as cheap as ~$12 and now for ~17 USD.  You can have players up to five, or if you are willing to have characters that are the same with different names, unlimited characters.  You have enough for a full on basic RPG with unlimited dungeon creation ability and monsters that will carry you for quite a while in playing.

In comparison, WotC has a better price point and in most of the above cases, better match for playing groups than what they've advertise thus far for WFRP.

Why would a new player choose WFRP over the starter set of 4e?  It certainly won't be due to cost.

The 3.5 basic set was hardly the entire game.  WFRP, as it's being described, is the complete set, not just an introduction as the 3.5 boxed set was.  Compare what you'd get for the 3.5 game and the price is higher on the D&D side.  Trust me, I bought it.

You seem to be assuming that the WFRP box that is being put out by FFG is an incomplete game.  If this is your assumption, then yeah, I can see how you'd make the decision that $100 is too much.  But if WFRP is akin to all the books you tend to buy for 4E (core stuff), then it's cheaper.  Nothing to debate there.  It's simple math, really.

Might I ask what makes you think that what's being shown isn't comparable to the PHB, DMG, and MM of 4E?






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