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#1 Chernobyl

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 07:12 AM

when warhammer 2nd edition came out, I did'nt have any advance warning. I was in the comic shop picking up my weekly comics, and saw it on the new release shelf right across from the register. I picked it up and put it with the comics I was buying without even looking at the price or opening the book, I was so stoked.

 

If I saw this monster box on a shelf, I'd take one look at the back, see the funky dice, and look a bit more. Then I'd realize its was far too different from the old system, and with a $100 price tag, put it back on the shelf. I wouldn't be able to us any previous expansion material.

1st and 2nd edition were largely compatible. Stats and combat systems were basically the same. Career advancement was nearly the same. It refined the combat by using more well defined actions, and broke the skills into talents and a deeper skill system. The magic system was the most drastically changed (still not 100% happy with it) but was easy enough to learn.

When Dark Heresy came out, we see a system that is basically a V3 of warhammer: Deep classes replace careers and advancement, variable stat and advancement cost provide a logically scalable progression, psychic powers replace the magic system, the combat system has more defined actions reflecting the technology of the setting, and again: skills and combat system are basically the same. Its is easy to learn and pick up because of our familiarity of the setting.

With WFRP 3E, the initial release is more expensive. $100 vs. something like $30-35 for the core rulebook when it came out a couple years ago. Gone are the familiar combat and skill system - indeed, there is no resolution system like previous editions due to the different dice. The cards are there as 'gaming aids' for the players, to speed up play so that we can focus on storytelling. Well, if something is optional, why isn't it sold separately? How much would it cost to buy just the rulebooks? All the information is there isn't it?

My impression from the preview photos eveybody has seen is that no, it isn't optional. The shrink wrapped books in the cases appear to be thin and staplebound - there isn't much meat in there. All the stuff is appears to be in the cards. Its not a board game - but it has all the hallmarks of one - one look at FFG's Descent or Arkham Horror (two board games I enjoy) shows much the same items. In FFG's defense, they weren't the first - WOTC did that when they brutalized D&D's 4th edition, and released all the powers on cards. Many of my friends and I play that game, and enjoy it. It is a fun little game, but it doesn't in any way feel like D&D to me. At this point I estimate that will be my opinion of this new edition. It may be fun, it may be easy to learn and play, but it won't "feel" like the old editions, which I think is the problem.
 



#2 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 07:36 AM

Chernobyl said:

WOTC did that when they brutalized D&D's 4th edition, and released all the powers on cards.

Months after the game was released, duplicating the information easily available in the rulebook, and made virtually redundant by the presence of the (really very high quality) D&D character builder software, which lets you print out ready-customised item cards and power cards with your character sheet.

From what I've seen, the D&D power cards boxed sets don't sell, because while they're a useful play aid, the same information is available more easily and more cheaply elsewhere.


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#3 Chernobyl

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 07:57 AM

well, it doesn't appear as if FFG gives that option to us with the new edition.



#4 DagobahDave

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:03 AM

Chernobyl said:

The cards are there as 'gaming aids' for the players, to speed up play so that we can focus on storytelling. Well, if something is optional, why isn't it sold separately? How much would it cost to buy just the rulebooks? All the information is there isn't it?

My impression from the preview photos eveybody has seen is that no, it isn't optional.

You're assuming that "gaming aids" are always optional. Dice are "gaming aids", as are character sheets and rulebooks. I look at roleplaying like swimming or mountain hiking, being a skill that requires no equipment, just a venue. Anything you purchase to augment that skill is an "aid" of some kind, whether it's a swimsuit or a walking stick.

The cards probably are optional in the sense that you could just copy the info onto paper, and use that.

You probably would have a tough time trying to eliminate the dice or use a different dice system, but I'm sure it could be done if you were really determined.

But with common imaging software, it should be easy enough to create your own career cards, action cards, party cards or whatever. There is nothing FFG can do with ink and paper that we can't do ourselves with ink and paper. The idea that we won't be able to modify the game or create our own alternative versions of it is without basis.

 

 


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#5 DagobahDave

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:04 AM

Chernobyl said:

well, it doesn't appear as if FFG gives that option to us with the new edition.

Give us the option? No way. We takes the option!


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#6 Chernobyl

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:04 AM

DagobahDave said:

Chernobyl said:

The cards are there as 'gaming aids' for the players, to speed up play so that we can focus on storytelling. Well, if something is optional, why isn't it sold separately? How much would it cost to buy just the rulebooks? All the information is there isn't it?

 

My impression from the preview photos eveybody has seen is that no, it isn't optional.

 

You're assuming that "gaming aids" are always optional. Dice are "gaming aids", as are character sheets and rulebooks. I look at roleplaying like swimming or mountain hiking, being a skill that requires no equipment, just a venue. Anything you purchase to augment that skill is an "aid" of some kind, whether it's a swimsuit or a walking stick.

The cards probably are optional in the sense that you could just copy the info onto paper, and use that.

You probably would have a tough time trying to eliminate the dice or use a different dice system, but I'm sure it could be done if you were really determined.

But with common imaging software, it should be easy enough to create your own career cards, action cards, party cards or whatever. There is nothing FFG can do with ink and paper that we can't do ourselves with ink and paper. The idea that we won't be able to modify the game or create our own alternative versions of it is without basis.

 

Me, I DO believe that gaming aids are optional.  Spells cards, are optional - I can look them up in the book.  GM screens, are optional.  I can look up tables in the book.  Dice are not optional.  This isn't LARP where you resolve tasks using rock-paper-scissor throws.  Character sheets are not optional - I'm not going to memorize what my PC's strength is to know what his basic swim skill is when I need to swim away from the falls.  Minis, and maps well, I used to consider them optional back in high school (20 years ago, when I survived on a $1.00 allowance a week), but the popularity and the long run of D&D 3.0 and 3.5, means that most players today have a tough time envisioning combat without them.  So they're usually not optional anymore.  And if you need to copy the information from the various cards onto a single sheet of paper, then its the paper that's optional, not the cards because they are the original source.

 



#7 jadrax

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:21 AM

Chernobyl said:

And if you need to copy the information from the various cards onto a single sheet of paper, then its the paper that's optional, not the cards because they are the original source.

For all we know the cards simply copy information that is in the rulebooks.



#8 Chernobyl

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 09:16 PM

still waiting for an answer on that.



#9 Storm Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:32 AM

From what I gathered at one of the Gen Con seminars, there are no charts in the books.  The cards are it.  The reason for this was given that a stack of cards would be easier to use than looking up charts in a book.  Tzeentch's Curse was given as an example.  If you miscast, you have to decide to roll on the tables in either the core book or Realms of Sorcery, which I don't have so I don't know if the updated tables include the ones from the core book.  With drawing from a card deck, when they get updated, you just shuffle in the new cards.



#10 Moracai

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 11:21 AM

jadrax said:

For all we know the cards simply copy information that is in the rulebooks.

 

 

 

I wouldn't be too optimistic about that. I haven't played a single FFG game (which admittedly haven't been many) that duplicates card text in the rule text. After all, it probably wouldn't be economically sound to double up on the texts.

 



#11 jadrax

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 11:28 AM

Moracai said:

I wouldn't be too optimistic about that. I haven't played a single FFG game (which admittedly haven't been many) that replicates card text in the rule text. After all, it probably wouldn't be economically sound to double up on the texts.

TBH, I am not very optimistic. But there is no point worrying about it until its confirmed one way or the other.



#12 GreyLord

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 04:33 PM

Storm Wolf said:

From what I gathered at one of the Gen Con seminars, there are no charts in the books.  The cards are it.  The reason for this was given that a stack of cards would be easier to use than looking up charts in a book.  Tzeentch's Curse was given as an example.  If you miscast, you have to decide to roll on the tables in either the core book or Realms of Sorcery, which I don't have so I don't know if the updated tables include the ones from the core book.  With drawing from a card deck, when they get updated, you just shuffle in the new cards.

 

That's a dumb idea...IN MY OPINION.  Books, even with liquid poored over them, can at least hold shape, and if you are really lucky, the cover absorbs most of the blow and the pages last.  Cards are dead the first second someone spills a glass.

Books have covers which at least partially protect the pages.  Cards can be torn, shredded, stepped on, and easily tossed down or accidentally destroyed much more easily.

Books are pretty easy to find, cards can be easily dropped from a stack of cards and lost.

 

Books are subject to all things cards are since they are both paper...but overall cards are less durable, and much more easily lost.  Hence, unless you plan on keeping a game in a box (uhhhh...I guess this fits) ALL the time, protected by the box...cards are not what I'd call an idea choice.  I'd at least toss the charts in the books as well, that way you have two methods both backing each other up, in case one gets ruined.



#13 macd21

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:49 PM

GreyLord said:

Books are subject to all things cards are since they are both paper...but overall cards are less durable, and much more easily lost.  Hence, unless you plan on keeping a game in a box (uhhhh...I guess this fits) ALL the time, protected by the box...cards are not what I'd call an idea choice.  I'd at least toss the charts in the books as well, that way you have two methods both backing each other up, in case one gets ruined.

True, but then you have to add to the page count of the books, which in turn increases their price (for duplicate information). That's on top of the already hefty price tag of $100.

Anyway, I'm guessing there'll be numerous copies of most of the cards in the set. If you lose one, take one of the others and make a copy.



#14 Jacques el arcabucero

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:07 PM

Chernobyl said:

 

Me, I DO believe that gaming aids are optional.  Spells cards, are optional - I can look them up in the book.  GM screens, are optional.  I can look up tables in the book.  Dice are not optional.  This isn't LARP where you resolve tasks using rock-paper-scissor throws.  Character sheets are not optional - I'm not going to memorize what my PC's strength is to know what his basic swim skill is when I need to swim away from the falls.  Minis, and maps well, I used to consider them optional back in high school (20 years ago, when I survived on a $1.00 allowance a week), but the popularity and the long run of D&D 3.0 and 3.5, means that most players today have a tough time envisioning combat without them.  So they're usually not optional anymore.  And if you need to copy the information from the various cards onto a single sheet of paper, then its the paper that's optional, not the cards because they are the original source. 

 

 

20 years ago i survive with 100 pesetas jejeje...

 

I´m accord with you. All you say is a true like a mountain.

If all those material is optional, sale it apart, not in the same box. This quantity of optional stuff makes the final product more expensive than necessary.

If 100$ is the final price, i suppose they arrive to Spain about 85 -100€ (increasing prices for translation, permissions etc). In that case, i have only one thing to say: You can put your game there where the sun never rise.
 



#15 MagnusSeter

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:14 PM

GreyLord said:

Books, even with liquid poored over them, can at least hold shape, and if you are really lucky, the cover absorbs most of the blow and the pages last.  Cards are dead the first second someone spills a glass.

Books have covers which at least partially protect the pages.  Cards can be torn, shredded, stepped on, and easily tossed down or accidentally destroyed much more easily.

Books are pretty easy to find, cards can be easily dropped from a stack of cards and lost.

 

Take the cards to a binder, and bind them together in a book! Problem solved! Or just staple them together, that'll work too!

/M



#16 Poe

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 02:42 AM

GreyLord said:

Storm Wolf said:

Books are subject to all things cards are since they are both paper...but overall cards are less durable, and much more easily lost.  Hence, unless you plan on keeping a game in a box (uhhhh...I guess this fits) ALL the time, protected by the box...cards are not what I'd call an idea choice.  I'd at least toss the charts in the books as well, that way you have two methods both backing each other up, in case one gets ruined.

 

I don't understand this worry about cards or bits getting destroyed or lost! I've been playing boardgames for 20 years and I can't remember ever loosing a card or  token. Yes, some cards show some wear and tear, but if you're really worried about that there are plenty of different card sleeves to choose from.

I've always considered me and my friends handling of board games and card games to be perfectly normal, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we're unconsciously extremely careful when we play, and that's why we still haven't "torn, stepped on, tossed down or accidentally destroyed" any of our cards. We have definitely not shredded any cards yet.



#17 jadrax

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 02:53 AM

Poe said:

I've always considered me and my friends handling of board games and card games to be perfectly normal, but maybe I'm wrong.

I think you are wrong.

I don't think I can put my hands on a single compleate game apart from my copy Arkham Horror and Talisman, and that is only maintains by me hitting people with a sword until they retrieve whatever piece they have decided should go and live under the sofa today. And that gets me branded as obsessive by everyone else.



#18 ChaosChild

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 03:36 AM

Poe said:

I don't understand this worry about cards or bits getting destroyed or lost! I've been playing boardgames for 20 years and I can't remember ever loosing a card or  token. Yes, some cards show some wear and tear, but if you're really worried about that there are plenty of different card sleeves to choose from.

I've always considered me and my friends handling of board games and card games to be perfectly normal, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we're unconsciously extremely careful when we play, and that's why we still haven't "torn, stepped on, tossed down or accidentally destroyed" any of our cards. We have definitely not shredded any cards yet.

I have a little stack of counters from Twilight Imperium in my living room at the moment, and I don't even own the game. They're from the last time somebody brought it round to mine to play, I retrieved them from under the sofa a few days later. We hadn't even realised they were missing at the time, so would we even notice if a few bits from WFRP went missing?

The soldiers from Risk that I retrieved at the same time have gone back in the box, since that's a game I actually own. 



#19 Poe

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:05 AM

Haha! I guess we are uniquely careful/obsessive about the bits and cards then.

It doesn't feel like it though. The only rule we have is no drinks on the same table as the board.

 

Hmm... maybe it's a Swedish thing...



#20 jadrax

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:18 AM

Poe said:

It doesn't feel like it though. The only rule we have is no drinks on the same table as the board.

Wow. Even I dare not be that repressive. ;o)






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