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Questions on turn function


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#1 mr_smigs

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 04:53 PM

Just getting into the game,

and we've had a couple of issues already with how we interpret the game... 

 

 Turn/Round order:

what we thought it was:
1.  Wounded Pilots resolve their "maneuver" (2 cards), and chooses next maneuver (2 cards)
2. Normal Pilots resolve their "maneuver" (2 cards)
3. Everyone shoots (1 target max)

 

the alternate read we can see:

1.  Wounded pilot resolves 1 card and replaces
2. Normal pilots resolve 1 card and replace
3. Shooting

problems with method 2...
   Tailing says you can look at their first card and replace yours if you want to,  if it's resolved after each shooting phase at 1 card, then a engine damaged pilot has no way to shake a tail, and most other pilots are unlikely to shake it off(combined with AIM it makes getting one turn of Tailing to work basically ends someone.)

    Exceptional Pilot ...  I don't see planning or movement mention the inability to play the same card twice in a row (aside from in the "flying patrols" rules).  Exceptional Pilot says you can't break the Immalman rule, nor is it Daredevil Pilot.    I only have a decks for Spitfire, Gumman, and the Messerschmitt... but out of that lot, only the Spitfire seems to have cards which don't come in pairs... which makes the skill fairly useless for most planes... Using the 2-cards method, it means you could read it as the right to simply ignore your second maneuver card to repeat the first one...

am I missing something here? 

 

similarly Acceleration seems to not make a whole lot of sense... Without it it seems you're forced to make a High Speed and a Lowe speed each turn... (this is what led us to think it was the 2-card method since only Immelman/Split S maneuvers require changing speed mid-maneuver) 
Is Acceleration basically "Take 2 extra blank speed counters, these mean you don't change speed" in which case, it might as well just be an extra High Speed and an extra Low Speed counter... but then, what's the point of Golden Touch? (again, unless the Ace Skill lets you instantly swap in the speed you want twice per game...)

 


 



#2 longagoigo

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 02:18 AM

mr_smigs said:

 Turn/Round order:what we thought it was:
1.  Wounded Pilots resolve their "maneuver" (2 cards), and chooses next maneuver (2 cards)
2. Normal Pilots resolve their "maneuver" (2 cards)
3. Everyone shoots (1 target max)

 the alternate read we can see:

1.  Wounded pilot resolves 1 card and replaces
2. Normal pilots resolve 1 card and replace
3. Shooting

This is just going by the rulebook, as I hope to get both sets of WWII next week, but....the rulebook seems pretty clear.

Your #2 is closest to correct, if we add/change some language, 'replaces' is ambiguous.  Of the two cards, the first one is used [wounded], then the 2nd card is moved over to the 1st position and a new card is selected for the 2nd position.  Then the normal pilots do the same thing.  They get the advantage of seeing the 1st moveof wounded pilots before selecting their new card, while wounded pilots don't get to see the 1st card of normal pilots before selecting their new card.



mr_smigs said:

problems with method 2...
   Tailing says you can look at their first card and replace yours if you want to,  if it's resolved after each shooting phase at 1 card, then a engine damaged pilot has no way to shake a tail, and most other pilots are unlikely to shake it off(combined with AIM it makes getting one turn of Tailing to work basically ends someone.)

I was able to watch "Midway" on TV last night and, yes, having someone on your tail was not a good thing!

 mr_smigs said:

   Exceptional Pilot ...  I don't see planning or movement mention the inability to play the same card twice in a row (aside from in the "flying patrols" rules).  Exceptional Pilot says you can't break the Immalman rule, nor is it Daredevil Pilot.    I only have a decks for Spitfire, Gumman, and the Messerschmitt... but out of that lot, only the Spitfire seems to have cards which don't come in pairs... which makes the skill fairly useless for most planes... Using the 2-cards method, it means you could read it as the right to simply ignore your second maneuver card to repeat the first one...am I missing something here? 

From what I'm reading in the rules, the exceptional pilot, by using the EP card [?], can repeat the previous card, giving it the ability to break the 'no 2 steeps in a row' rule.  Daredevil also allows two steep manuevers, but would have to have two cards of the manuever, whereas EP only need one card which is repeated.  Daredevil and EP allows a 3rd steep in a row.

 QUOTE efidm=167328]similarly Acceleration seems to not make a whole lot of sense... Without it it seems you're forced to make a High Speed and a Lowe speed each turn... (this is what led us to think it was the 2-card method since only Immelman/Split S maneuvers require changing speed mid-maneuver) 
Is Acceleration basically "Take 2 extra blank speed counters, these mean you don't change speed" in which case, it might as well just be an extra High Speed and an extra Low Speed counter... but then, what's the point of Golden Touch? (again, unless the Ace Skill lets you instantly swap in the speed you want twice per game...)

Regular rules allow you to change speed every other move, but doesn't force you to do it.  Acceleration rules force you to not change every other move.  The Golden Touch lets you take an extra speed token, so you'd have the four [high, low, blank and blank] plus one more [high or low].  In normal Acceleration, 2 of the tokens are on the 2 maneuver cards.  When the 1st card is used, the speed is not available for the next maneuver selected, therefore you can never have a high-low-high sequence.  For Golden Touch, you have one extra token, so after a high-low sequence you would have 2 blanks and a high or a low token available to use.

That's what I get from reading the rules.  I hope I explained it well enough.  If not, just work through the rules a little more.



#3 mr_smigs

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 06:35 AM

longagoigo said:

Regular rules allow you to change speed every other move, but doesn't force you to do it.  Acceleration rules force you to not change every other move.  The Golden Touch lets you take an extra speed token, so you'd have the four [high, low, blank and blank] plus one more [high or low].  In normal Acceleration, 2 of the tokens are on the 2 maneuver cards.  When the 1st card is used, the speed is not available for the next maneuver selected, therefore you can never have a high-low-high sequence.  For Golden Touch, you have one extra token, so after a high-low sequence you would have 2 blanks and a high or a low token available to use.

That's what I get from reading the rules.  I hope I explained it well enough.  If not, just work through the rules a little more.

from the way it reads to me,

Default Accel
You have 2 speeds (high, low) for each plane
and are placing 2 cards in the que each turn (either adding one after resolving one, or whatever)
which means, you must alternate between high and low each maneuver....

using Acceleration optional Rules
Two "blanks" are added to the two speed tokens,
now, a new speed is placed only if the plane changes speeds
so you can start the game in High Speed, and just place blanks for the next 30 cards staying in High Speed the whole time if you want to...

but then, the Ace Skill that adds tokens, aside from making it harder for the other player to guess what token you chose (1:5 instead of 1:4) it serves no purpose...

if you were placing 3 cards at a time, this skill would make more sense, (since it would let you go High-low-high without having any cards resolved) but you're only placing two cards... 

unless the "speed counter" is locked onto the console until you change speeds...  (thus if you go High speed) then maintain speed, plan a low speed, the maneuver planned after the low speed will have to be a low speed since when you plan the move after the Low it hasn't been resolved yet and thus the High is still in the console...  (Is that the intent? )

 

as for the Exceptional Pilot, if the intent is "you can do two climbs or stalls back to back"  what's the purpose of the rest of the wording?



#4 longagoigo

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:43 PM

mr_smigs said:

Default Accel
You have 2 speeds (high, low) for each plane
and are placing 2 cards in the que each turn (either adding one after resolving one, or whatever)
which means, you must alternate between high and low each maneuver....

From Setup on p.4, for regular speed rules, it says 4 speed markers (2 high, 2 low, I think I was thinking it was 1 high, 1 low and 2 blank), so you could change everytime (this is why on p.10 under Acceleration it says, "It is more realistic if planes can choose not to change speed at every turn."  Of course, since you have 2 of each, you don't have to change everytime, as after being used they go back into your pool (top of p.6).

mr_smigs said:

using Acceleration optional Rules
Two "blanks" are added to the two speed tokens,
now, a new speed is placed only if the plane changes speeds
so you can start the game in High Speed, and just place blanks for the next 30 cards staying in High Speed the whole time if you want to... 

Yes, two blanks are added, so speed also never has to change.  [One difference I've just noticed is that the current speed token is placed face up on the board to start (3rd sentence under Acceleration on p.8). Under regular, the starting speed isn't shown until the 1st card is turned over.] In Acceleration optional rules, when a new 1st card is turned over to move the plane, the speed marker goes into the current speed space and the old one goes into the pool of unused markers.  To change speed, you must have a high or a low in the 2nd maneuver position following the other in the 1st position.  Since the 1st one is then going into the current speed space, there will be only 2 blanks available to put into the 2nd maneuver position when it is moved into the 1st position.


mr_smigs said:

but then, the Ace Skill that adds tokens, aside from making it harder for the other player to guess what token you chose (1:5 instead of 1:4) it serves no purpose... 

Well, it wouldn't make it harder, as they are hidden, but in Golden Touch you only get to use an extra high or low speed marker twice during the game, so it allows changes to speed, like Regular Speed rules, twice during the game.

mr_smigs said:

unless the "speed counter" is locked onto the console until you change speeds...  (thus if you go High speed) then maintain speed, plan a low speed, the maneuver planned after the low speed will have to be a low speed since when you plan the move after the Low it hasn't been resolved yet and thus the High is still in the console...  (Is that the intent? ) 

Yes, speed markers are locked into the space called Current Speed under Acceleration optional rules.  During play, you've got a 1st programmed manuever position with it's speed marker, the 2nd PM with it's speed marker, the current speed, and unused speed markers in their space.  For regular play, the Current Speed space isn't used, as the markers are returned to the unused space after being revealed and planes moved. 

mr_smigs said:

as for the Exceptional Pilot, if the intent is "you can do two climbs or stalls back to back"  what's the purpose of the rest of the wording?

I guess to clarify what it doesn't mean and how Daredevil affects it.

It is always worth the time to go back and do a slow read of the rules, as we often misremember details.  Also, little bits and pieces of rules are often scattered about, so may not be in the main section or where you think they should be.  Also, after some experience of the game, the meaning of the rules become a little clearer.






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