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Magic Users and "The Gift"


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#1 MinorDemon

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 06:05 AM

 A quick question for verification purposes:

 

Do spell casters, such as wizards, mentalists or cross class characters such as warlocks and illusionists need to choose "The Gift" as an advantage or do their spell-casting abilities come naturally as per their character class?



#2 Skywalker

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 01:01 PM

MinorDemon said:

 A quick question for verification purposes:

 

Do spell casters, such as wizards, mentalists or cross class characters such as warlocks and illusionists need to choose "The Gift" as an advantage or do their spell-casting abilities come naturally as per their character class?

Yes, they need to choose the Gift to use magic. This also means that a Warrior PC with the Gift can use Spells too (though much less effectively).

Mentalists however have to choose either Free Access to Any Discipline or Access to One Psychic Discipline to use Psychic Powers.



#3 Furien

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 07:55 AM

Skywalker said:

Skywalker said:

 

Yes, they need to choose the Gift to use magic. This also means that a Warrior PC with the Gift can use Spells too (though much less effectively).

Mentalists however have to choose either Free Access to Any Discipline or Access to One Psychic Discipline to use Psychic Powers.

 

Could you tell me where it clarifies this?  I too was having this problem, but couldn't find an answer in the book, and I'd like to be able to point it out in the future if someone else asks, as I'm about to start a game with a bunch of new players, and I'm sure it'll come up.



#4 XII

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:27 AM

It says you need those CP in the Magic and Psychic section of the books. 



#5 Syllvenwood

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 08:00 PM

SO if you want to play any of the magic using classes you basically get less advantages then other characters cause you must take mandatory ones, that seems really crappy and terribly restrictive.

 

So basically, your advantages determine what class you can be, that seems terribly counter intuative to being called an "advantage" if its actually a requirement to be what you want to be. It makes very littel sense to me, it would be an advantage if you wanted to be a weaponmaster And cast spells. But as it stands if you want to be a mystic then you have only 1cp instead of 3 in reality



#6 Swordwraith

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 04:29 AM

Syllvenwood said:

SO if you want to play any of the magic using classes you basically get less advantages then other characters cause you must take mandatory ones, that seems really crappy and terribly restrictive.

 

So basically, your advantages determine what class you can be, that seems terribly counter intuative to being called an "advantage" if its actually a requirement to be what you want to be. It makes very littel sense to me, it would be an advantage if you wanted to be a weaponmaster And cast spells. But as it stands if you want to be a mystic then you have only 1cp instead of 3 in reality

Ki users basically need to take Martial Mastery if they ever want to learn Techniques and Ki Powers at a reasonable rate. It balances out.

Similarly, Summoners without Superior Zeon Recovery are in trouble.

Anyone using a Power Source is going to need certain advantages.

 

 



#7 commanderq

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 05:19 PM

Summoners do not have to take the gift though.  So i dont see why they would take zeonic recovery....



#8 Efferdan

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 10:21 AM

Syllvenwood said:

SO if you want to play any of the magic using classes you basically get less advantages then other characters cause you must take mandatory ones, that seems really crappy and terribly restrictive.

 So basically, your advantages determine what class you can be, that seems terribly counter intuative to being called an "advantage" if its actually a requirement to be what you want to be. It makes very littel sense to me, it would be an advantage if you wanted to be a weaponmaster And cast spells. But as it stands if you want to be a mystic then you have only 1cp instead of 3 in reality

Yes, your advantages determine what you can be. This is right - and good in my opinion.

Remember: classes in Anima are just a way to express your focus of learning, not what you are. Since the term "Class" is often used in other RPGs (like the one with the double D) to fully define what you are and what you can, this may be kind of a "false friend" in the beginning. But if you start thinking around this, everything makes sense. You need "The Gift" to cast magic. If you fully dive into your potential (and thus walk on the road of a "Wizard") or if you choose to neglect it, because you fear and hate your power as a curse not in line with christianity (remember the setting) and therefore become a fighter (which somehow has to think about his gift, someday) is your choice and gives you plenty of roleplaying opportunity.

If you don't want that but rather like to have your character progression be determined by your chosen class, I'd say: Play another game :)

 



#9 Magpie212

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:56 PM

Efferdan said:

Syllvenwood said:

 

SO if you want to play any of the magic using classes you basically get less advantages then other characters cause you must take mandatory ones, that seems really crappy and terribly restrictive.

 So basically, your advantages determine what class you can be, that seems terribly counter intuative to being called an "advantage" if its actually a requirement to be what you want to be. It makes very littel sense to me, it would be an advantage if you wanted to be a weaponmaster And cast spells. But as it stands if you want to be a mystic then you have only 1cp instead of 3 in reality

 

 

Yes, your advantages determine what you can be. This is right - and good in my opinion.

Remember: classes in Anima are just a way to express your focus of learning, not what you are. Since the term "Class" is often used in other RPGs (like the one with the double D) to fully define what you are and what you can, this may be kind of a "false friend" in the beginning. But if you start thinking around this, everything makes sense. You need "The Gift" to cast magic. If you fully dive into your potential (and thus walk on the road of a "Wizard") or if you choose to neglect it, because you fear and hate your power as a curse not in line with christianity (remember the setting) and therefore become a fighter (which somehow has to think about his gift, someday) is your choice and gives you plenty of roleplaying opportunity.

If you don't want that but rather like to have your character progression be determined by your chosen class, I'd say: Play another game :)

 

I agree entirely with Efferdan. In the majority of systems, the inherent advantages & drawbacks of a given character type are generally incorporated into the class. In a game like Anima, however, it's likely that many characters will have more than one string to their bow. Consider advantages & disadvantages a way to better differentiate the characters, rather than a way to restrict their growth. And remember the first rule: if something doesn't work for you, strip it out or change it. It's your campaign! In my game, for instance, we use a sort of 'birthsign' system I created (based on the Major Arcana of the Tarot) that provides free advantages  & disadvantages to each character before they even choose their base ones. The Magician, for example, gets The Gift for free, but at a penalty of -1 to any 2 physical attributes. Things like this can help make the game uniquely yours, and in the end, that's best for everyone.



#10 Efferdan

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 12:12 PM

Magpie212 said:

 

 

I agree entirely with Efferdan. In the majority of systems, the inherent advantages & drawbacks of a given character type are generally incorporated into the class. In a game like Anima, however, it's likely that many characters will have more than one string to their bow. Consider advantages & disadvantages a way to better differentiate the characters, rather than a way to restrict their growth. And remember the first rule: if something doesn't work for you, strip it out or change it. It's your campaign! In my game, for instance, we use a sort of 'birthsign' system I created (based on the Major Arcana of the Tarot) that provides free advantages  & disadvantages to each character before they even choose their base ones. The Magician, for example, gets The Gift for free, but at a penalty of -1 to any 2 physical attributes. Things like this can help make the game uniquely yours, and in the end, that's best for everyone.

This system sounds interessting. And reminds me a little bit of 7th Sea and some other games. Would you mind sharing this system? I am interessted in actually seeing this.



#11 Skywalker

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:47 PM

Syllvenwood said:

SO if you want to play any of the magic using classes you basically get less advantages then other characters cause you must take mandatory ones, that seems really crappy and terribly restrictive.

No. Magic is itself an advantage. Every PC has to choose what advantages they want from a level starting playing field. As noted above, most classes have to spend CPs on certain advantages to be effective. Magic is no different.

 



#12 Luced

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 05:40 PM

Well I pearsonly hink it's a bit of a problem with the system saying here you go your a wizard and haveskills in magick, but if you dint take the gift you wont get to use it.  Kinda doesnt make sense.  If I am a wizard without the gift, why do I have combat magic skills or defensive ones.  I can understand haveing Knowladge of magic as a wizard without the gift. you a scholer not a practioner.  But how did my non gifted wizard ever get any skill useing magic if I never had ay magic to practie with?   doesnt make sense honestly.

But what the system is trying to do I think is say that anyone can learn magic who wants i as long as they take the gift a wizards just bin trained or as practed ueing his agicmore than the others and probably has a naturel talent for it.  

One salution you might be able to use is go through each of the classes and give each one a Innate Gift.  so if I take th wizard class I get the gft for free, but if I takethe warrior class I get a weapon module for free.    this is a way you cold make sure evry gets what they want.   

 



#13 commanderq

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 06:09 AM

No.  You misunderstand the classes.  The classes are simply templates for which you can spend DP into to aquire diffrent levels of power.  I can understand your confusion as to why it does not say on the wizard class, "you must have the gift to use magic", what your not understanding is that no one in the anima world WOULD be a wizard without the gift.  That class template is for charecters who have been born with the gft and have focused in developing its talents.  this is why it has cheaper point costs for magic related things and a higher cost for non-magic.  The classes are not..."when i grow up im going to be a wizard!!".  These classes represent a pre-disposition to a certin area of training that your charecter has gone into.

Just as a previous post said, it is illogical that a techniqution or tao would start the game without some level of martial knowledge CP.  It is just as unlikely that a wizard or warlock will start the game without the gift.  In fact its impossible because no one would even know how to fit into the disposition of a wizard or warlock without the gift to pre-occupy there time to study.

It is setup the way it is because they do not want to partition off certin classes with certin creation points.  There is nothing preventing you from playing a Warrior who has the gift.  and nor should there be, it just means that your charecter was born with magical talent, you just chooce not to persue it.

And to answer the other question, about anyone becoming a wizard in anima, the answer to that is also no.  witht he lore as stated, only people born with the gift can become users of magic.  If you wish to change that, if your GM nothing prevents you, but you must then change the lore that goes with it.  The Gift costs 2 CP because that gives charecters acess to some of the strongest powers in the game.  Magic gets stonger the more you charge it up.  A single high level mage could obliterate an entire army with ease.  that is well worth a small price of 2 CP.  Making that not cost 2 CP would give your charecters an incredible advantage.  you would have to scale every encounter accordinaly.  Mabye the Bandits that attack them know magic to now?  be carful what can of worms you open up.



#14 Skywalker

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 10:01 AM

Luced said:

But what the system is trying to do I think is say that anyone can learn magic who wants i as long as they take the gift a wizards just bin trained or as practed ueing his agicmore than the others and probably has a naturel talent for it.  

One salution you might be able to use is go through each of the classes and give each one a Innate Gift.  so if I take th wizard class I get the gft for free, but if I takethe warrior class I get a weapon module for free.    this is a way you cold make sure evry gets what they want.   

It really isn't a problem. You seem to be applying a "class uber alles" approach to Anima that really isn't appropriate IMO. Classes in Anima just provide you with a template of costs of spending your DP. However, how you spend your DP is over to you. This is what creates Anima's incredible diversity. 

By moving the Gift out of the class structure, you end up with a lot more flexibility for PC concepts. As you have pointed out, anyone can learn magic asa result, but only magic classes have the training and predisposition to excel at it. It also allows for summoners who don't use spells.

IMO it is really no different from the fact that a Warrior PC may choose to spend DP on combat abilities, but need not do so. Sure that is unlikely but some diverse concepts may require that.



#15 Luced

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 06:19 PM

Skywalker said:

Luced said:

 

But what the system is trying to do I think is say that anyone can learn magic who wants i as long as they take the gift a wizards just bin trained or as practed ueing his agicmore than the others and probably has a naturel talent for it.  

One salution you might be able to use is go through each of the classes and give each one a Innate Gift.  so if I take th wizard class I get the gft for free, but if I takethe warrior class I get a weapon module for free.    this is a way you cold make sure evry gets what they want.   

 

 

It really isn't a problem. You seem to be applying a "class uber alles" approach to Anima that really isn't appropriate IMO. Classes in Anima just provide you with a template of costs of spending your DP. However, how you spend your DP is over to you. This is what creates Anima's incredible diversity. 

By moving the Gift out of the class structure, you end up with a lot more flexibility for PC concepts. As you have pointed out, anyone can learn magic asa result, but only magic classes have the training and predisposition to excel at it. It also allows for summoners who don't use spells.

IMO it is really no different from the fact that a Warrior PC may choose to spend DP on combat abilities, but need not do so. Sure that is unlikely but some diverse concepts may require that.

Well what i was pointing out is technicly in the rules someone who take the wizard class doesnt technicly need to take "The gift" advantage to be a partof the class wih means acording to the letter of the rules you could have a wzard who has skills in Magic despite the fact that he cant cast magik.  This is what I said was a problem.  becouse it doesnt make sense for someone who CAN NOT cast magic (a player who chose t be a wizard but not take the gift advantage) to have skills in magic.  wich as I said by the letter of the rules can happen. 

Now any gm could say hey that doesnt make sense so if your gonna be the wizard you are required to take the gift advantage. end of story.  But this than makes the system unbalanced becouse no other class requires someone to purchase a talent in order to play that class.(well okay maybe a few of them would).   SO now you get into favritism and balanced point exenditures.

If the whole point of the classes is to just be sorta a backrund or a way of expressing were you training lies and so they offer just some base points t add to you character and a mechanicl way to outline some aspects of your growth, thats all fine and good.  but when you get down to the ath of it. statiscly if Character A gets 100 extra points in various abilties based on his warrior class fetures and can spend his 10 Character poins to purchase any advantage he wants. and Charactr B gets 100 extra points to his various abiliesbased on his wizard class feature only if he spends 3 of his 10 points on a specifc advantage.  well that means he only has 7 points to custamize himself  while the arror has 10 points. 

now it could be argued this is to trade of the advantage the spells offer to character B. but the warrior gets 10 points to do whatever with including Buying the gift he wants but you must face that the wizard is required to spend some of his points jut to be a wizard with leaves him with less of an abilty to custmize himself tha wizard. 

This is the problem I see.   a warrior can be a warrior without any extra points. He can be a warrior without the need for any CP a wizard on he othe and can not.  This is a unbalanced mechanic.  b ut that doesnt mean it's a bad game or tat it needs to be changed spells are powerfull and it's a valid argument that wielding that power is stronger than any sword or weapn a warrior could ever wield wich justifys the extra point expenditure. 

my suggestion to give each class a free advantage related to it was specifcly to give this pearson a way to get around his poblem with the sysm without breaking the game. so that when the wizard's player gets his free advantage for picking the wizard class  the warrior player doesnt feel like he got jipped or that the gm is playing favrites. so the warrior an the wizard can freely custaize themselves with whatever without feeling someone else is getting extra. 



#16 Skywalker

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:15 AM

Luced said:

Now any gm could say hey that doesnt make sense so if your gonna be the wizard you are required to take the gift advantage. end of story.  But this than makes the system unbalanced becouse no other class requires someone to purchase a talent in order to play that class.(well okay maybe a few of them would).   SO now you get into favritism and balanced point exenditures.

That is not correct. Psychic power has the same requirements as Magic. So the expenditure of CP applies to roughly one third of the classes in Anima. In addition,all classes in Anima need to spend their CPs and DPs to some extent on certain abilities to be effective. In this sense every class in treated the same.

Could these important abilities be embedded in every class? Sure, but when you do so you would automatically start limiting the options. It might make sense for the Wizard, but it becomes less certain for the Summoner, Warlock and Warrior Summoner. 

Where the right balance lies between the ease of having decisions made by class and the flexibility of leaving all options to the player is over to the preference of each RPGer, but there is nothing broken or innately wrong with Anima's approach. Its cool that it may not be for you. However, I would point out that Anima distinguishes itself as an RPG on the breadth of its character options. Personally, I think that it should empahsise this aspect more, rather than deter from it.

A more valid criticism IMO is that magic and psychic powers differ from those other important abilities in that they require CP and as such cannot be purchased later in the game. Whether this is a good thing will depend on your own opinions on the nature of those powers and how they are represented in the game. I can see a cool house rule that grants 1 CP every 3 to 5 levels.

 

 



#17 Efferdan

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:55 AM

There was a time, when balance wasn't everything. There was a time, when someone would play the apprentice of the mage in the group and when actually roleplaying was more important than stats. Sure, this is a thing each indivudal group must decide, but I think it is important. Just don't switch off your brain when generating characters and writing stories ;)

Also - as pointed out, each class should take some advantages to be effective. Fighters would propably like to purchase better regeneration or quick reflexes, for example. I like the classes, as they are, 'cause you can adapt the stats to your story and don't need to do it the other way round. Also, it allows for switching classes between levels, if it makes sense for the development of a character.

The concept of the gift and psychic powers is tied to the lore of the world... and so, for me it's fine.

One point is, that CP are only used for character generation and you're rather limited. If you want a more flexible system, you can rule, that each CP equals roughly 50 DP and start with 750 DP (and throw the CP away all together). I think this would be an idea to consider for Version 1.1 of the game, for simplicities sake ;) Of course, you would have to limit how much DP a player can spent on advantages (i.e. 400) and how much he could gain from disadvantages (i.e. 300) in return.



#18 Magpie212

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 10:22 AM

Sure, just as soon as i get a formalised copy typed up, I'll post it here. :)



#19 Luced

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:01 AM

Once again I just want to clarify my self and thank both of you for proveing my point.

I wol like to say for the record that despite no avein played the game yet do to trying to learn all it's in's nd outs, but I think it could be one of the best systems out there.

But this pearson askedabout so I offered an alternitive.

and yes mechanics arnt everything balance is one of the least impotant factors in a god roleplaying game, However Despite the fact that a warror may want or chooe to take Certain advtages to get the most band for his buck he in NO WAY is REQIRED to take them but the wizard can not be a wizard without the gift so in word makes sense but mechanicly it means that the warrior can be and do what eve he wants while there are limits placed on the wizars abilty to freely create his character.

I smply offered a alternitive. and a salution to the combined classes if dont give them any of the magic adantages give thema  unique one to them selves. 

or it culd be said that magic balances out the point expenditure



#20 commanderq

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 05:28 AM

What every one is saying hear in repose to your proposal that you could technically have a wizard with out the gift, is that, in the actually living breathing world of anima you would not find such a thing.  The wizard template is for a charecter who has the gift and persues it, to the fullest potential.  The reason they dont tie the wizard to the gift is the same reason why they dont die Tao to Martial knowledge.  They want to avoid forcing people into a particular path.  Yes I understand your frustration in this, but it is the only way they would set it up.  There are things that are implied.  Also you need to understand that the book, as with any RPG is nothing more than a guideline, the authers know that people are going to house rule it up, and they in fact probally want people to do so.  They didnt put class ties to CP points because they knew half the people who played would ignore that any way.  lol.  Mabye if they make a new edition of it someday it will have thoughs 1 senctence of writing in there, "must have gift".

 

So in essence while you are correct from a very mechanical, point of view, you would never actually find a person in anima that was a wizard template w/o the gift.






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