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Ace Rules revisited


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#1 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 12:42 AM

This discussion has been moved from the Campaign thread to allow ideas relating specifically to Ace Special Abilities to be talked about.

I am attempting to create a 3 tier system for WoW WW1 using the Ace skills from Wow: Dawn of War rules pgs 14-15.

These Ace Rules are still UNDER DEVELOPMENT and have not been playtested at all.

 

5 victory points allows a pilot to "buy" one Single Ace skill or upgrade one Single Ace skill to Double Ace.

10 victory points allows a pilot to upgrade one Double Ace skill to Triple Ace.

This system uses the following terms interchangeably...

Tier 1 = Single Ace

Tier 2 = Double Ace

Tier 3 = Triple Ace

This would allow a specific Ace skill eg. Daredevil to be taken as a Single Ace ability and then later upgraded to Double Ace and perhaps Triple Ace.  Each upgrade would allow the pilot ability to be used more frequently.

Not all Ace skills can be upgraded to Triple Ace (only Perfect Aim, Sniper, Bullet Checker, Daredevil)

Taking the ace skill first as Single Ace and then having the option to upgrade it to tier 2 (Double Ace) and then possibly tier3 (Triple Ace) later on allows for a more realistic progression of skill improvement and also gives more depth and variation between pilots with similar ace skills.
note. the Ace Skill of Expert Marksman listed below is identical to the Ace Skill of Sniper from Wings of War: Dawn of War pg15. The Ace Skill of Sniper in my campaign is actually a new skill where the pilot has increased range of fire.

SINGLE ACE SKILLS

Evasive Pilot
Acrobatic Pilot
Expert Marksman
Perfect Aim
Sniper
Bullet
Daredevil
Super Ace  (reduce the number of recovery counters for one Single Ace skill by 1)


DOUBLE ACE SKILLS

Evasive Pilot   (allow 2 damage cards to be ignored)
Acrobatic Pilot   (take only 3 recovery counters)
Expert Marksman   (take only 2 recovery counters)
Perfect Aim   (take only 2 recovery counters)
Sniper   (take only 2 recovery counters)
Bullet Checker   (take only 2 recovery counters)
Daredevil   (take only 3 recovery counters)
Super Ace   (reduce the number of recovery counters for one Double Ace skill by 1)
 

TRIPLE ACE SKILLS

Evasive Pilot   (allow 3 damage cards to be ignored)
Perfect Aim   (take only 1 recovery counter)
Sniper   (take only 1 recovery counter)
Bullet Checker   (take only 1 recovery counter)
Daredevil   (take only 2 recovery counters)



 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#2 HMS Hajj

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 05:24 AM

Okay, I've been toying around with the idea of making the Ace abilities tiered. This way an ace can progress in a skill and become better at it. These have been in no way play tested at all and are just my initial thoughts on the subject. Please read each ability carefully as I've made some changes to some of them and they do not all progress the same.

 

17. Ace Special Abilities

When a pilot or rear gunner becomes an Ace, they get to select one Tier I special ability. If they reach Double Ace, they can select either another Tier I ability, or they may select the Tier II upgrade to an ability that they already have. Triple Ace allows the upgrade to Tier III or a third Tier I ability and so on. Each ability replaces the tier below it, unless noted in the ability.

The list of abilities is divided in to two sets. The first list can be chosen only by pilots, the second one by both pilots and observers. A plane may have an ace pilot with a non-ace observer or vice-versa. "When the ace fires" means that the ability is applied only if that specific airman (pilot or observer) is firing. If the observer is incapacitated, his individual abilities cannot be applied for the rest of that game.

Pilot Only Abilities

Acrobatic Pilot I
Player can do an Immelmann turn without having to do a straight after it. The straight before it still has to be done. Player may use this ability once every other turn. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.

Acrobatic Pilot II
Player can do an Immelmann turn without having to do a straight after it. The straight before it still has to be done. Player may use this ability once every turn. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.

Acrobatic Pilot III
Player can do an Immelmann turn without having to do a straight before or after it. Player may use this ability once every two turns. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.


Daredevil I
Player can do two steep maneuvers in a row. Player may use this ability once every other turn. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.

Daredevil II
Player can do two steep maneuvers in a row. Player may use this ability once every turn.

Daredevil III
Player can do three steep maneuvers in a row. Player may use this ability once every other turn. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.


Evasive Maneuvers I
This pilot can not be tailed, unless the tailing opponent is also an Ace.

Evasive Maneuvers II
This pilot can not be tailed, unless the tailing opponent is also an Ace. When tailed, can rearrange first two cards.

Evasive Maneuvers III
This pilot can not be tailed, unless the tailing opponent is also an Ace. When tailed, can rearrange cards.

Exceptional pilot I
This pilot can select one maneuver card from any maneuver deck of a plane that was in operation at the same time as the one he is flying. Two seaters may not add an Immelmann maneuver card.

Exceptional pilot II
This pilot can select two maneuver card from any maneuver deck of a plane that was in operation at the same time as the one he is flying. Two seaters may not add an Immelmann maneuver card.

Exceptional pilot III
This pilot can select one maneuver card from any maneuver deck. Two seaters may not add an Immelmann maneuver card.


Lucky Git I
Player can ignore a single damage card once per game, after drawing and looking at it. The player must show the card to all other players. The ignored card is put back in to the damage deck and shuffled. The Explosion card may not be ignored in this manner.

Lucky Git II
Player can ignore a single damage card twice per game, after drawing and looking at it. The player must show the card to all other players. The ignored card is put back in to the damage deck and shuffled. The Explosion card may not be ignored in this manner.

Lucky Git III
Player can ignore a single damage card twice per game, after drawing and looking at it. The player must show the card to all other players. The ignored card is put back in to the damage deck and shuffled. The Explosion card may be ignored in this manner.

 

Pilots or observer individual abilities

Deadly Aim I
The Ace can decide to use the +1 Aim bonus even if he did not shoot at the same plane in the previous phase. Player may use this ability once every other turn. . Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.

Deadly Aim II
The Ace can decide to use the +1 Aim bonus even if he did not shoot at the same plane in the previous phase. Player may use this ability once every turn.

Deadly Aim III
The Ace can treat long range as short and deal two damage cards when shooting. Player may use this ability once every other turn.


Dedicated Ground Crew I
A plane with this ability ignores the green jammed special damage.

Dedicated Ground Crew II
A plane with this ability never jams.

Dedicated Ground Crew II
A plane with this ability never jams and ignores the engine damaged special damage.


Marksman I
When the ace fires to an enemy plane at long range, the firing ace draws two damage cards and picks which one his opponent will keep. The unused card is shuffled back in to the deck. When firing at close range, the ace takes three cards and chooses two of them for his opponent to keep. Player may use this ability once every other turn. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.

Marksman II
When the ace fires to an enemy plane at long range, the firing ace draws two damage cards and picks which one his opponent will keep. The unused card is shuffled back in to the deck. When firing at close range, the ace takes three cards and chooses two of them for his opponent to keep. Player may use this ability once every turn.

Marksman III
When the ace fires to an enemy plane at long range, the firing ace draws three damage cards and picks which one his opponent will keep. The unused cards are shuffled back in to the deck. When firing at close range, the ace takes four cards and chooses two of them for his opponent to keep. Player may use this ability once every other turn. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.


Quick Shot I
An Ace with this ability fires first and resolves his damage before any other pilots. If two Aces with the Quick Shot skill shoot at each other, it is resolved simultaneously.

Quick Shot II
An Ace with this ability fires first and resolves his damage before any other pilots or Aces unless they also have Quick Shot II.

Quick Shot III
An Ace with this ability fires first and resolves his damage before any other pilots or Aces unless they also have Quick Shot III. Quick Shot III also allows the Ace to fire before the third maneuver card is played every other turn.


Technical eye I
The player can look at the damage cards of any one airplane. The plane has to be in firing distance from the ace's plane, in any direction (from the central dot to any point of the examined plane). Player may use this ability every other turn. Use a blank counter to remember that you used the ability and discard it after a turn.

Technical eye II
The player can look at the damage cards of any one airplane. The plane has to be in firing distance from the ace's plane, in any direction (from the central dot to any point of the examined plane). Player may use this ability every turn.

Technical eye III
The player can look at the damage cards of two airplanes. The planes has to be in firing distance from the ace's plane, in any direction (from the central dot to any point of the examined plane). Player may use this ability every turn.


I've highlighted Marksman III in bold as it might be to powerful. As it is written now, it can only be used every 4-6 maneuver cards depending on which round of a turn it was used on. If it is to powerful, my thoughts are to change it to use the same rule as Marksman II, but to treat long range as short. I'm not sure if this new idea should be used once every turn, or once every other turn.
 



#3 Flying Officer Kyte

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:02 AM

The only problem with the tiered Ace abilities that I can forsee is that you may end up as virtually indestructable unless assailed by a complete Jasta. It reminds me of the way that Warhammer went,with the wizard on a dragon using Vortex of chaos. Some serious re-writing of the rules was needed to bring things back to a reasonable level of normality! If you just use the rules with friends it would be less likely to lead to strife, but I could see some people refusing to fight you at all. Lets keep it simple for we simple souls.



#4 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:34 AM

Flying Officer Kyte said:

 

The only problem with the tiered Ace abilities that I can forsee is that you may end up as virtually indestructable unless assailed by a complete Jasta. It reminds me of the way that Warhammer went,with the wizard on a dragon using Vortex of chaos. Some serious re-writing of the rules was needed to bring things back to a reasonable level of normality! If you just use the rules with friends it would be less likely to lead to strife, but I could see some people refusing to fight you at all. Lets keep it simple for we simple souls.

 

 

Remember a few points...

1) these are only optional rules, take them or leave them, its up to you and your playgroup to decide what rules u want to play by.

2) the ace skills are designed to be used in a campaign.  by this i mean that your pilot is not invincible and takes damage when shot down. he can be killed.If one pilot is getting too powerful the enemy will target him and shoot him down!

3) I can see play balance (or imbalance) being a problem only if you let players become ace, double ace and triple ace too easily.

 

im testing the ace skills in a campaign right now, to be honest its too early to say whether they are over balanced or not as only one player has reached Single Ace so far.

You need to build in a graduated system so that its harder and harder to get the better skills.

in our campaign we are using this system

PILOT POINTS
Pilot points were awarded as follows:
2pts shooting down a plane
4pts destroying a balloon
1pt chasing off a plane.

 

Pilots Points needed to become an Ace.

* Single Ace = 10 Pilot Points
** Double Ace = another 20 Pilot Points after becoming a Single Ace
*** Triple Ace = another 40 Pilot Points after becoming a Double Ace

or taking only total Pilot Points into consideration...

* Single Ace = 10 Pilot Points (5 kills)
** Double Ace = 30 Pilot Points (15 kills)
*** Triple Ace = 70 Pilot Points (35 kills)

 

 

 

 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#5 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 08:43 AM

Our campaign spans  3 yrs of game time from 1916-1917 which could be up to 15-20 missions.

 

the idea is by the end of the war you will have  a few triple aces on each side and maybe even 1-2 triple aces with two tier3 skills.

*** = Triple Ace

** = Double Ace

* = Single Ace

 

COUNTRY Pilot's Name (recorded kills)

USA
Edward V. Rickenbacker 26 **
Frederick W. Gillet 20 **
Wilfred Beaver 19 **
Howard A. Kullberg 19 **
William C. Lambert 18 **

AUSTRIA
Godwin Brumowski 35 ***
Julius Arigi 32 **
Benno Fiala von Fernbrugg 28 **
Frank Linke-Crawford 27 **
Josef Kiss 19 **

BELGIUM
Capt. Willy Coppens 37 ***
Lt. de Meulemeester 11 *
Lt. Edmond Thieffry 10 *
Capt. Fernand Jacquet 6 *
Sgt. Adolphe duBois d'Aische 6 *

BRITISH
Major Edward Mannock 73 ***
Col. William A. Bishop 72 ***
Capt. Robert A. Little 47 ***
Major Raymond Collishaw 68 ***
Capt. James McCudden 58 ***
Capt. A. Beauchamp-Proctor 54 ***
Capt. Donald McLaren 54 ***
Major Philip F. Fullard 53 ***
Major William G. Barker 52 ***
Capt. G.E.H. McElroy 48 ***
Capt. Albert Ball 44 ***
Capt. F.T.Hazell 41 ***
Capt H.J. Larkin 41 ***
Capt. J.I.T. Jones 40 ***
Capt. F.R. McCall 39 ***
Capt. W.G. Claxton 39 ***
Major Roderic Dallas 39 ***
Capt Alfred Atkey 38 ***
Capt. John Gilmore 37 ***
Capt. Henry W. Wollett 35 ***
Capt. W.E. Shields 34 **
Capt. Frank G. Quigley 32 **
Major G. Murlis-Green 31 **
Major Albert D. Carter 31 **
Capt W.L. Jordan 31 **
Capt J.L.M. White 30 **
Capt. M.B. Frew 30 **
Capt. C.E. Howell 30 **
Capt. S.M.Kinkead 30 **

FRANCE
René P. Fonck 75 ***
Georges M.L.J. Guynemer 53 ***
Charles E.J.M. Nungesser 43 ***
Georges F. Madon 41 ***
Maurice J.P. Boyau 35 ***
Michel J.C.M. Coiffard 34 **

GERMANY
Manfred von Richthofen 80 ***
Oberl. Ernst Udet 62 ***
Oberlt. Erich Löwenhardt 56 ***
Lt. Werner Voss 48 ***
Lt. Fritz Rumey 45 ***
Hpt. Bruno Loerzer 45 ***
Hpt. Rudolf Berthold 44 ***
Lt. Paul Bäumer 43 ***
Lt. Josef Jacobs 43 ***
Hpt. Oswald Boelcke 40 ***
Lt. Franz Büchner 40 ***
Obltnt. Lothar von Richthofen 40 ***
Lt. Karl Menchkoff 39 ***
Lt. Heinrich Gonterman 39 ***
Lt. Karl Bolle 36 ***
Lt. Max Muller36 ***
Lt. Gustav Boerr 35 ***
Lt. Julius Buckler 35 ***
Hpt. Eduard von Schleich 35 ***
Lt. Josef Veltjens 34 **
Ltn. Heinrich Bongartz 33 **
Lt. Otto Koennecke 33 **
Oblt. Kurt Wolff 33 **
Lt. Emil Thuy 32 **
Lt. Paul Billik 31 **
Lt. Gotthardt Sachsenberg 31 **
Lt. Theo Osterkamp 31 **
Lt. Karl Allmenroder 31 **
Lt. Karl Degelow 30 **
Lt. Heinrich Kroll 30 **
Lt. Josef Mai 30 **
Lt. Ulrich Neckel 30 **

ITALY
Francesco Baracca 34 **
Silvio Scaroni 26 **
Pier Piccio 25 **
Flavio Baracchini 21 **
Fulco Ruffo di Calabria 20 **

RUSSIA
Alexander A. Kozakov 20 **
Vasili Yanchenko 16 **
Pavel V. Argeyev 15 **
Ivan W. Smirnov 11 *
Grigory Suk 9 *

link: http://www.wwiaviati...aces/aces.shtml


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#6 Pour Le Merite

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 09:40 AM

The rules are not bad but we sure could use some official decks for aces also. Like an ace version of the damage decks and maybe a few manuevers you can buy with XP and put in your planes deck, say 5 for each type of plane..

The way Wow is handled with decks kinda makes custom rules harder to implement but easier for official ones to be made.



#7 csadn

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 09:45 PM

Pour Le Merite said:

The rules are not bad but we sure could use some official decks for aces also. Like an ace version of the damage decks and maybe a few manuevers you can buy with XP and put in your planes deck, say 5 for each type of plane..

The way Wow is handled with decks kinda makes custom rules harder to implement but easier for official ones to be made.

How about allowing the Ace an opportunity, every so often, to change a plotted move?



#8 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 11:17 PM

nice idea. what would it be called?

This would certainly help reduce collision damage in our campaign. how about this?

Tactical Pilot I
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their third planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every other turn.

Tactical Pilot II
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every other turn.

Tactical Pilot III
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second and third planned manouvres. Player may use this ability once every three turns.

 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#9 csadn

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 08:44 PM

The_Brown_Bomber said:

Tactical Pilot I
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their third planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every other turn.

Tactical Pilot II
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every other turn.

Tactical Pilot III
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second and third planned manouvres. Player may use this ability once every three turns.

Interesting idea, tho' the "cyclic rate" at level 3 seems bit high.

I'd allow level 1 to change one planned move (either 2nd or 3rd), but wait two turns before being able to do so again; each level up from that reduces the recycle time by one (a Lvl 2 could do so every other turn; a Lvl 3 could do so every turn).



#10 Pour Le Merite

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 09:29 PM

csadn said:

The_Brown_Bomber said:

 

Tactical Pilot I
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their third planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every other turn.

Tactical Pilot II
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every other turn.

Tactical Pilot III
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second and third planned manouvres. Player may use this ability once every three turns.

 

 

Interesting idea, tho' the "cyclic rate" at level 3 seems bit high.

I'd allow level 1 to change one planned move (either 2nd or 3rd), but wait two turns before being able to do so again; each level up from that reduces the recycle time by one (a Lvl 2 could do so every other turn; a Lvl 3 could do so every turn).

I agree, every turn is a bit too much. Fast reaction can of course save an aces life (But it Didn't help for Oswald Boelke, the guy who said no enemy could shoot him down).

I would even say that the level 3 gets a little too powerful still. Lvl one every 5 turns, 2 every 3 and 3 every second is good enough for my taste.In that case you might save the ability until you really needs it. If you can do it every turn you will but you will only use it when you must if you can't use it the next turn.

It is a good idea however and a thing that works perfectly without adding or changing any cards :)



#11 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 05:56 AM

nice! i like that refinement. im going to add it to my pool of ace skills (up to 12 now, really 36 with each lvl) and see how it goes.


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#12 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 06:01 AM

Tactical Pilot I
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their third planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every three turns.

Tactical Pilot II
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second or third planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every other turn.

Tactical Pilot III
After manouvre one has been revealed this pilot can change their second or third planned manouvre. Player may use this ability once every turn.


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader





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