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When is a unit worth more than its Gold, Silver,Bronze value?


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#1 Bobby-Winky

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 05:09 AM

I played a game last night and used Karak.  I included Guardian Spirit and Void Walker.  Both of these cards were instrumental in sustaining Karak through the game.  Though my Karak never died I really felt like he was worth more than a simple 3 victory points (especially with the cards I attached to him.)   It almost seemed that my opponent should receive 6 victory points if he would have killed Karak ( 1 for the Bronze and 2 for the Silver cards attached to Karak.)   These cards in my opinion are better than most command cards since once attached they are always in effect.  I am sure if my opponent had killed Karak I would have insisted he receive no less than 4 V.P.'s

Now I am not saying the game needs new rules.  In fact I know this judgement is very subjective - but there are times when some units when bolstered with certain command cards seem worth more than their color value.  Has anyone else ever experienced this? 

Just lookin for a little discussion on this.....



#2 de99ial

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 07:09 AM

Hmm... I think that situation is an effect of bad balance. One units have better abilities than other no matter that they cost the same. I other words i think its a good call to make those rules (REALLY usefull units and powerfull need give more VP than others) but it has to be done for EVERY unit and it should include modificators for command cards that could be attached to unit. FE. Karak's card each other make bonus +1 VP for everyone attached to a model i moment of death Karak. Thanks to this Karak without boost give 3VP but fully boosted make 6VP.



#3 Ruvion

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 05:14 PM

Although it seems at first sight that certain units may be worth more than their weight in gold, silver, or bronze...one fact that you may be overlooking is that you are using command cards that are solely dedicated to Karak, which to my eyes make him a heavier and certainly riskier investment (you've put a big bull's eye on Karak). If you penalize him further by increasing the VP value for eliminating him, then it makes such comboes less feasible. Think of it this way: While you were beefing up your Karak, the opposition could have had a few more bronze or silver units, order tokens, or command cards.

I think it is the age old dichotomy of putting all your eggs in one basket versus versatility...you may possibly get a much bigger return for putting in a heavier investment, but if it fails there is very little to fall back on.



#4 Coral Beach

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:11 PM

I've played against an Ilian army 2 times. Karak with two Ice golems and Brotherhood troops (Inquisitors, Inquisitor Majoris, and so on). My opponent loose two times.

The reason is Karak was very busy to attach its command cards, play Ilian command cards (the Ice Golem has only one command icon) and support the rest of the army in the same turn (my opponent used to protect it in rear line which not facilitate its offensiv capabilities). Karak has the Possession command card but never used it because I concentrated my fire on the rest of the army.

Yes, it has lot of options to play but this gold unit has the same number of action as any bronze unit. My opponent was tempted to select a large number of command cards (the Command tent is another option in this way) to the detriment of number of units. And some number of these command cards were played only by one unit (formerly Karak). Maybe this problem will be resolved with Second Set Ilian officers but Karak is today not overpowered in Tournament games.



#5 Ruvion

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 01:57 AM

In your opinion...Karak has the right balance? Or is he underpowered despite all the options that avail themselves to him?



#6 Coral Beach

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 02:33 AM

Not balanced or overpowered, just underused.

For having experienced him without the Second Set, Karak has lot of tactical possibilities but not the time to work them properly (the one command card per turn rule is a real restriction for him). The mix with Brotherhood troops seems overbalanced too but the two games have shown that is like having two armies on the board, the Ilian squad (if you have Ice Golem) and the Brotherhood army (who have no real synergies with Karak and work quite independently).

By exemple, my opponent need to make a choice between play an exclusiv Karak command card and send an Ice Golem in melee with Invoque Golem command card. And the Command Tent doesn't help because you can store only Ilian command cards which can be played, for lot of them, only by Karak. So each game focused mainly on the ability of Karak to properly use its precious actions (my opponent had not time to attach cards because, at each Karak activation, he need to play other command cards).

Maybe with second set, and the selecting of units with several Ilian command icons like Nepharite of Ilian or Reaper of Souls, this faction will work far better because Karak will focus on its exclusiv command cards.

But my opponent didn't take the risk to put him in first line so this may be a tactic error.

And I forget, we played with 10/10/10 format on the A02 map (the bunker one).



#7 Ruvion

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 03:58 AM

Underutilized because of the lack of availability of Ilian units (especially those with high command access)...Weighing things in context, however, in today's climate of MC CMG, underused means underpowered, no?



#8 Coral Beach

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:17 AM

If you used only official casted miniature, yes he's underpowered. If you use proxies for the Second Set, he will work at his full potential (on the paper, he has astonishing options). I plan to repaint overnumbered Bronze Technomancers and Mortificators in Ilian colour scheme (dark green, red and livid flesh in order to have Nepharites of Ilian and Reaper of Souls). Obviously, some Silver Ezoghouls will make perfect Reanimated Ezogouls or Ezogoul Shades with some light repainting.

Maybe the Ice Golem was not the best unit to be released first for this faction with Karak.



#9 Ruvion

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:22 AM

Yes that idea has merit...I may also look into doing that.



#10 de99ial

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:32 AM

Hmm... I will do something else. I will use Algeroth units instead Brotherhood. More - i will do one great Legion army without splitting on the Apostles. The same thing with Corporations (as a Cartel). I think it will be more fun ;)



#11 Ruvion

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:27 PM

Actually for those that do not like proxies (like moi) treating both Algeroth and Ilian as one faction, the faction of Dark Legion, as you say is an interesting alternative. Just make the command icon interchangeable and  you have no problem shooting off those Ilian command cards.






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