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Question about "The Masquerade Ball" Win condition.


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#21 Whitewing

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:29 PM

So their answer is "The way we wrote it, you get to roll the die, but we should have been more clear about our intent, so we'll go ahead and put our intent in the FAQ, without actually telling you in our answer here what our intent was."



#22 Keithh

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:01 PM

Funny, we played this last night and ruled you can't have rescued a guest if the OL was able to capture them all. Glad to see Justin's response confirms this.



#23 BenOverlord

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:10 PM

So their answer is "The way we wrote it, you get to roll the die, but we should have been more clear about our intent, so we'll go ahead and put our intent in the FAQ, without actually telling you in our answer here what our intent was."

 

And sadly never put in the FAQ.  So use whatever your standard conflict resolution method is for this.  You can go by what they said or what they now say they intended to say.

 

Let the fighting continue!!!!



#24 Robin

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:09 PM

 

So their answer is "The way we wrote it, you get to roll the die, but we should have been more clear about our intent, so we'll go ahead and put our intent in the FAQ, without actually telling you in our answer here what our intent was."

 

And sadly never put in the FAQ.  So use whatever your standard conflict resolution method is for this.  You can go by what they said or what they now say they intended to say.

 

Let the fighting continue!!!!

 

I would apply the RAW until any official FAQ comes out, especially as Justin is no more in charge of the rules questions now.

He already on occasions has answered wrong - contradicting Adam Sadler's rulings and thus needing to back from his answer.

Whitewing applied the correct way of interpretation of the rules: applying the letter and not trying to guess the hidden intentions of the designers.

I would not consider that other interpretations were "right" from a correct reading of the encounters' rules, even though they happen to have the support of Justin - who admits that the rules, by themselves, would not lead to their conclusions.

 

I would say that we here could have the display of the difference between boardgamer and RPG player rules interpretations : the former keeps to the rules along what logics say; the latter choose to interpret rules in a mostly subjective, sloppy way.

Those two "gaming cultures" have their full right to exist, within the bonds of their respective gaming environements.

As Descent is a boardgame, subjective/realism argumentation is wrong and one has to stick to strict logics - even if the game abstractions don't "feel" right.

At least, when it comes down to answering rules questions.

Everybody, besides that, plays as he wants at home.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#25 BenOverlord

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:20 PM

I am not going to win or try to win any debate but this game has a lot of poorly worded stuff and at times you have to make "reasonable" decisions based on wording selections.  If you are unwilling to make "reasonable" modification to rules as written the game becomes rather broken at times. Not saying what is "reasonable" here and that is a big part of the problem.  Reasonable people can disagree on the definition of reasonable. 

 

Case in point.  The 2nd final in LoR (cannot recall name).  There is a door adjacent to the spot where the heroes start.  If you are playing 4 hero game there is no adjacent spot to place your ally.  Reasonable fix is to put it on opposite side of door but that technically violates RAW. 

 

Another one is the first Act two quest for Trolfens.  The one reinforce option says to place 1 minion plague worm.  For two hero version there is no minion plague worm in the group. 

 

Can list a lot more with poor wording but do not want to derail this thread.


Edited by BenOverlord, 24 February 2014 - 05:21 PM.


#26 Robin

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:26 PM

I agree about the poor wording.
Some concepts seem to have been badly thought out, and we are now entangled in complicated rulings (typically the movement "pool" notion, as well as the numerous "non movement" movements such as Oath of Honor, create a useless mess IMO).
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An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#27 rfisha

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:38 PM

Play it the way your group thinks is the most enjoyable.  Easy.



#28 Robin

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:42 PM

Play it the way your group thinks is the most enjoyable.  Easy.

Easy, of course.
But some people like to play along the rules, which is more challenging.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#29 KtuluCaller

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:27 PM

What an inspiring debate!  

 

I agree with rfisha.  Given that I'm overlord and need heroes to play, who just got demolished and demoralized with an 0 for 4 outcome, I would side with the rules and let them win, coming up with a story like "Lord T was out fighting The Joker and The Penguin instead of at his party....who knew?"

 

;)


Edited by KtuluCaller, 24 February 2014 - 11:28 PM.


#30 rfisha

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:25 AM

 

Play it the way your group thinks is the most enjoyable.  Easy.

Easy, of course.
But some people like to play along the rules, which is more challenging.

 

 

Ahhhh... confused, but yeah, I suppose more challenging for the heroes.  

As this quest favors the OL, I can see why it is more enjoyable to house rule it.  It doesn't change the mechanics of the game in any way or add any complexity - it's trivial.  If the group agrees I don't really see one way or another how it has a major impact on challenge.  It really depends on your playing group, but RAW is best if you cannot decide.



#31 jkemppainen

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:49 PM

Hey guys,

 

Sorry about the miscellaneous confusion on this issue. I understand that I responded to the question quite some time ago, but it unfortunately slipped through the cracks when it came time to update the FAQ. Twice, actually :unsure: . Rest assured, when it comes time to update the FAQ once more, many alarms will resound in reminder, and this issue will most definitely be fixed, for realsies this time.

 

Justin


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#32 Robin

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 06:22 PM

Thanks for chiming in Justin.
I am nevertheless wondering how the original design did not notice the problem initially.
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An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#33 rfisha

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 06:41 PM

Thanks for chiming in Justin.
I am nevertheless wondering how the original design did not notice the problem initially.

 

Because you can never test anything completely.  The RAW will never be perfect, nor the design.  To test to the level of perfection will make the game too expensive due to costs in play testing.

 

It's just like software - there will always be bugs.  FFG do a fantastic job IMO for a game with so many combinations of events occuring to get the game to level it is at.


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#34 Tasressurect

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:01 PM

This turned into such an unnecessary debate.

 

If you *complete* (sarcasm intended) 0 out of 4 objectives, I think it's reasonable to suggest that your opponent has won this encounter.

 

- Which happens to not even be a deciding factor, in whether or not Encounter 2 is won. There is still a chance, depending on the roll of the dice.



#35 Whitewing

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:57 PM

Well, the advantage earned in encounter 2 by winning encounter 1 for the overlord is extremely difficult to surmount as the heroes. Correct monster choice by the overlord and proper placement along with a few overlord cards can make it virtually impossible.

 

And you are missing the point with objectives: According to the victory condition, the only objective at all, rules as written, is to win the die roll at the end. Saving guests makes that easier and more probable, but that isn't the objective.

 

Feel free to house rule it any way you like.

 

Thank you for adding this to the FAQ though when you get the chance Justin, it will be much appreciated.

 

General rule for playing any board game or game with a ruleset: play by Rules As Written. If there is ever any confusion, play by the literal text of the game. All players are required to play by the same ruleset and need to know how it works ahead of time to make decisions: if you are going to houserule something, discuss it and agree before the game begins. Interpretations of implications can get you to some very weird places, and players will often not agree. The most fair thing to do is to stick to the RAW.


Edited by Whitewing, 25 February 2014 - 09:00 PM.


#36 Tasressurect

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:03 PM

The blasphemous argument continues...

 

I think I found the perfect Quest for you to utilize your RAW.

 

The Desecrated Tomb: (Encounter 1)

Victory Conditions:

If all the heroes move off of the map through the Entrance, the Heroes win.

 

It states specifically that they must find the Discarded Map in the Special Rules in order to move off of the map, but in the Victory Conditions this isn't anywhere to be found. By your logic, this encounter can be ended on the first turn of the Heroes, since they begin on the Entrance Tile, all they have to do is move off of the map through the Entrance.

 

By "RAW", it is a guaranteed victory for the Heroes if they leave the map during turn 1.

 

Do you disagree by this, or will you now play Devil's Advocate by discerning an implication.

 

Now in the 2nd Encounter of The Desecrated Tomb, by RAW, it says the Heroes must move off the map through the Entrance while carrying the Dawnblade.

-----------------

 

In every encounter and quest, there are victory conditions for both the heroes and the Overlord, that trigger, as soon as one or the other fulfills what is written.

 

By your logic, the only way that the Overlord can win Encounter 1 in Masquerade Ball, is if the Heroes do not roll a dice equal to or less than the guests they may or may not have rescued. By your logic, there is no immediate victory condition for the Overlord on this encounter - and it is the only encounter in the game, that does not have an immediate victory condition for one of the two parties.

 

----------------

 

I do not mean to insult you, but you literally sound like my mother. Her arguments generally are as illogical and as flawed as this one, and she is "correct" because she "says so".


Edited by Tasressurect, 25 February 2014 - 10:17 PM.

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#37 BenOverlord

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:07 PM

Tasressurect, are you my brother?  I think you described my mother. 


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#38 Whitewing

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:55 PM

The blasphemous argument continues...

 

I think I found the perfect Quest for you to utilize your RAW.

 

The Desecrated Tomb: (Encounter 1)

Victory Conditions:

If all the heroes move off of the map through the Entrance, the Heroes win.

 

It states specifically that they must find the Discarded Map in the Special Rules in order to move off of the map, but in the Victory Conditions this isn't anywhere to be found. By your logic, this encounter can be ended on the first turn of the Heroes, since they begin on the Entrance Tile, all they have to do is move off of the map through the Entrance.

 

By "RAW", it is a guaranteed victory for the Heroes if they leave the map during turn 1.

 

Do you disagree by this, or will you now play Devil's Advocate by discerning an implication.

 

Now in the 2nd Encounter of The Desecrated Tomb, by RAW, it says the Heroes must move off the map through the Entrance while carrying the Dawnblade.

-----------------

 

In every encounter and quest, there are victory conditions for both the heroes and the Overlord, that trigger, as soon as one or the other fulfills what is written.

 

By your logic, the only way that the Overlord can win Encounter 1 in Masquerade Ball, is if the Heroes do not roll a dice equal to or less than the guests they may or may not have rescued. By your logic, there is no immediate victory condition for the Overlord on this encounter - and it is the only encounter in the game, that does not have an immediate victory condition for one of the two parties.

 

----------------

 

I do not mean to insult you, but you literally sound like my mother. Her arguments generally are as illogical and as flawed as this one, and she is "correct" because she "says so".

 

No, you are being completely ridiculous. The victory condition is moving off the map. However, it specifically and very clearly states they have to do something else in particular before being allowed to do so. Problem solved. In the Masquerade ball, it never, and I mean NEVER, says anywhere that they must rescue at least 1 guest to make the roll. That's where you are losing it. You are inferring that based on a chain of logic that is not clearly spelled out or written. You are saying because it makes sense to you, that this must be the way to play it. But that is not what rules as written means. It means, you play the rules as they are written, and that's all. In the Desecrated Tomb, it specifically states you have a certain objective to complete before you are allowed to move off the map, and then the victory condition is having moved off the map. In the Masquerade ball, the victory condition is winning the die roll, but there aren't any conditions levied upon being allowed to make that roll.

 

And yes, that is the way the overlord wins in the first encounter of masquerade ball. And I have no idea what you are trying to say by "instantaneous win condition". It's meaningless gibberish. He wins the instant the die roll fails to be less than or equal to the guests rescued, and loses the instant the die roll succeeds. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

Your analogies and examples are incongruous.


Edited by Whitewing, 25 February 2014 - 11:57 PM.

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#39 Robin

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 03:18 AM

Tasressurect is simply trying to explain that rules are useless and that subjective, authoritarian interpretation of a self proclaimed "pope" is better than following the rules.

If those who try to play the RAW as written remind him of his mother, it simply shows that he must still recover from his oedipian complex and stop posturing as a paternalist enlightened dictator. He must back off being daddy for his mom.
(pseudo psychanalytic sarcasm here).
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An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#40 Tasressurect

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 03:20 AM

You need to stop what you are doing, take a step back, and review your material from a different point of view. You have no basis for an argument, yet you believe that you do. Shake the mentality from your head, and pay attention to what is being said.

 

In Desecrated Tomb:

 

The Victory Condition RAW is;

If the Heroes move off the map through the Entrance, they win the encounter.

 

Special Rules RAW is; If a Hero searches and finds the Discarded Map, they may now move off the map through the Entrance.

 

Nowhere in the Victory Condition does it state that they require the Discarded Map to move off of the map, through the entrance. This is stated specifically in the "Special Rules."

 

Back to The Masquerade Ball:

 

The Victory Condition RAW is;

If all monsters are defeated, or the last guest leaves the map for any reason the encounter ends. Any guest remaining is considered to be *rescued* by the Heroes. The Heroes roll dice to determine if Lord Theodir is among the guests they have *rescued*. If they roll dice equal to or lower than the guests they *successfully rescued*, then the Heroes manage to save Lord Theodir.

 

The Special Rules RAW is;

Guests: 1/2 of the Guests are Cultists (Monsters), and the other 1/2 are Noble Guests (One of which, is Lord Theodir)

 

Unmasking a Guest: If a Guest is a Red Objective Token, they are Cultists. If a Guest is a Blue Objective Token, they are

Noble Guests.

 

Escorting Guests: Escorted Guests are placed under the Hero who unmasked them.

...

A Hero may *rescue* an escorted Guest, by moving off the map through the Entrance.

...

Guests *rescued* by the Heroes are placed by the Hero play area.

...

------------

 

If there is any discrepancy on how to *rescue* a Guest, please look above, I have pin-pointed the locations in which they are written, between asterisks. Seriously, how many times did you look over what is clearly written, and refuse to adhere to the simplicity behind it? Why is this being questioned? Because it is ridiculous. For someone who seems to know and understand the written English language, your comprehension is not all there - and these two GENERALLY go hand-in-hand.






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