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Force user advancement thoughts


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#41 R2builder

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:04 AM

Considering that at the moment, with all the books (AoR beta include) a Force user can at best AND with a lot of XP reach a Froce rating of 3, I think that hindering Force usage isn't really a problem. With only Force rating 1 a force user can barely do thing on the level of a cantrip, things that mentalist and illusionist can easily do nowadays in our world (or at least they can make very good illusion of it). 

??? I don't think being able to move an AT-AT at force level 1 is a cantrip my friend. Nor is tearing away the blaster from someone's hand. (It can be debated if using Move is on point or two for the upgrades, see above post.) 

 

Thanks for your insight. Yes, right now EU is EU, and there are examples of everything in it. Some good, some bad. Regardless though, with the Force, there is usually a time when a self taught user plateaus out and needs a teacher. In this RPG, other Careers and Specializations can have books, training vids, computer programs to help them learn and train. 

I guess what bugs me most about it all though, is when I mentioned it to the player that his progression may get halted without a teacher, he was just whatever, I will save all my XP until I find one. Not, Hmm, at what point do you think that would be at? or Hmm, perhaps I should start looking for one, can we work that into the upcoming adventures somehow? Nope just defiance because he felt I am trying to use this against him in some way. To me that is the foremost sign of a power player. It's GM vs Player, not hey, well let's get me a teacher then. So to all the posters out there saying no, you shouldn't do that, perhaps it should be, well, do you have a plan for that, or is the player going to try to find one?  ;)


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#42 jerrypocalypse

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:35 AM

 

Hell, throw an Inquisitor or Fallen Jedi at him. They'd be able to sense his presence just by being on the same planet with him.

 

It they're strong enough, they could even sense him from within the system or even across sectors.


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#43 Dbuntu

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:11 AM

Thanks for your insight. Yes, right now EU is EU, and there are examples of everything in it. Some good, some bad. Regardless though, with the Force, there is usually a time when a self taught user plateaus out and needs a teacher. In this RPG, other Careers and Specializations can have books, training vids, computer programs to help them learn and train. 

I guess what bugs me most about it all though, is when I mentioned it to the player that his progression may get halted without a teacher, he was just whatever, I will save all my XP until I find one. Not, Hmm, at what point do you think that would be at? or Hmm, perhaps I should start looking for one, can we work that into the upcoming adventures somehow? Nope just defiance because he felt I am trying to use this against him in some way. To me that is the foremost sign of a power player. It's GM vs Player, not hey, well let's get me a teacher then. So to all the posters out there saying no, you shouldn't do that, perhaps it should be, well, do you have a plan for that, or is the player going to try to find one?  ;)

 

Couple points:

1. I think you're right that a fair amount of the issue is about the player. I get the impression that you really have not gotten much buy-in from him. That's fairly problematic. I'd say this is the thing to be most concerned about. If your player doesn't trust you to provide a good game and is constantly challenging you on things, there is no way to avoid a GM vs. PC mindset.

 

2. I'm not sure, but he seems to be doing a LOT with the Force. Are you sure you're using all the proper rules regarding Force users? A Force rating of 1 is really limiting.  I am surprised at how much he has been able to do with a single Force die.

 

3. You seem to be specifically limiting HIS advancement while not limiting anyone else's. That would kind of rub me the wrong way too and I'm a pretty easy going player. But you are telling him he can't spend his XP in FSE without a teacher (which nobody else needs) while at the same time complaining that he's just going to save his XP for whenever you provide a teacher. If he has the impression that you are specificaly targeting his character, he will probably not be too interested in working with you to reach a solution.


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#44 R2builder

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:43 AM

 

Sorry, the quotes got all messed up.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Force rating 1. Has Move Basic Power. Requires one Light pip. Has Strength upgrade four. To lift a silhouette 4 will only take one more light pip. I don't see how that is not in line with the CRB. Now last adventure he did pull a gun using move, and he should not have, as he did not have that upgrade yet, but he does now. With that upgrade and two Range upgrades, he can pull a blaster from someone from long range on two light pips. At short range he can hurl a silhouette 4 into someone doing 40 points of damage will take two force pips, and a Discipline Check (1Y, 1G) vs ranged defense. 

He does not have the 4 Strength upgrades yet, only 1, but still it doesn't matter if it is one or four upgrades.  

I fail to see how Force rating 1 is limited. Yes, most things require  2 light pips, 3 in 12 chance. Not great, but doable. 

He has a 3 in 12 chance to knock over an AT-AT at short range. I don't really see that as limiting.


Edited by R2builder, 24 February 2014 - 11:46 AM.

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#45 yeti1069

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:40 PM

I believe, but I'm not positive, that the bit of extra text on the Range and Magnitude upgrades is to remind you that, although you can spend multiple points on these upgrades, you still have to keep a point for the base power. I don't believe you get your Strength upgrades without spending an additional pip on them.

 

So, if he wants to lift something bigger than Silhouette 0, at long range (2 Range upgrades?), he'd need to spend 3 pips--not possible at Force Rating 1, and unreliable at FR 2 unless he's converting Dark Side points.

 

Also, remember that a Discipline check is required to lift the Object when making an attack with Move with a difficulty equal to the Silhouette, so 4 purple dice. Then ranged defense and other modifiers get applied to that, apparently (I think the wording on how this part of the power works could be made a bit clearer). If he's just picking things up and moving them, then putting them down, he doesn't require a Discipline check (apparently), but if he's attacking with it, he does. Whether range bands, or the base difficulty for ranged attacks apply to this is very unclear, but at the very least, he should be making the check against a Daunting Discipline check for a Silhouette 4 object + ranged defense/cover bonuses the target may have. That shouldn't be automatic with a Discipline of 1 Y, 1 G.



#46 R2builder

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:19 PM

I'm not tracking here. Activate move is one force point. That gives a Sil. of zero. One force point to activate range upgrade. Yes he has two range upgrades, that is still one force point. It just takes one force point to activate the upgrades for range, strength and magnitude.

Edited by R2builder, 24 February 2014 - 01:21 PM.

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#47 hencook

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

R2Builder, you're right about your friend being really boring, just standing there and moving things around. There are different solutions, but the first thing coming to mind is dropping the guy. If your player is just there to do one thing and go home, well, he's not going to be fun to play with, no matter what RPG you're playing.

 

Or, you could just take it like the babysitter you are. Just let him do it. Everybody likes the guy, so just let him do his force move, and then get on with the story. Give him an applause while you're at it. Tell him you're thinking about rolling up a character that rings a cowbell all day.

 

Or you could take a new spin on it. What if you turned off his connection to the force, mysteriously? What if you told him the next mission involved a force blocking Ysmalri? Would he decide to go on the mission, or stay? Maybe you can just let him dominate his adversaries, but challenge him in a different way altogether. What if a romantic interest showed up, and asked him not to do it because it's just too boring? What if it was an enemy Ewok? Would he force throw an Ewok off a bridge? A cute cuddly Ewok?

 

From what I can tell, this game seems to have a power gaming problem, and the core game itself provides no real counter to it. A few of your players might be all peaceful and all, and here comes this power-gaming, blaster-soaking, Wookiee that just stuns people to death. That's why I always like to make sure to balance the type of encounters all around. I remember I had a force sensitive like yours in the WotC's SW rpg, and he was all so great at killing things. So one day, I just had a massive skill check fest. I tried to include a reason to use every skill check, so they were climbing on things, balancing across pipes, filling out questionnaires with their knowledge checks, just about everything except combat for the force user. And then he fell off the pipe while he was trying to balance across it, and he starts crying that he took 1d10 damage. I'm serious. Crying. Everybody else made it across, except for the big bad Jedi. He fell. It sure made my day.


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#48 R2builder

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:37 PM

Wow, that is epic. I have had a GM almost crying because I refused to go on his train ride. I was a Saga Jedi counselor, and this GM believe that you could not go through a campaign and never get a dark side point. So he kept trying to force me to get one, and I wouldn't play along. It was also if I had at least one dark side point then the BBEG could strip away all my force powers or something like that. Something along the line if I had one DSP, he could render me totally useless in one round. Oh yeah, I was the only player too. So when I threw down my lightsaber and said, no, I am a Jedi knight, I will walk in the path of the light, or I will not walk at all, he threw a temper tantrum and just about cried. Last time we ever spoke too.

Any way. This player has not been bad in game, but things have happened that I am starting to worry about, and the conversation after the game left me a lot worried. And again, it is not about me "countering him" it's about trying to use him in a way that can still challenge the player/character, and have him as a useful member of the group.
You are totally right right about all the other skills. I am horrible about not using the skills like they should be. So that will the first thing is thinking about encounters that use all the skills of the system. Every adventure I need to have them roll as many as I can, without just rolling for the sake of rolling.

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#49 2P51

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

Just a thought but maybe split the group up in some fashion.  Perhaps when he is a bit more on his own the whole standing in the open not moving his hands thing won't be so practical and he'll get to doing the ol Jedi hustle for cover and wishin he had a gun.....


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#50 yeti1069

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:18 PM

I'm not tracking here. Activate move is one force point. That gives a Sil. of zero. One force point to activate range upgrade. Yes he has two range upgrades, that is still one force point. It just takes one force point to activate the upgrades for range, strength and magnitude.

 

Maybe neither of us is understanding the other, or we're both saying the same thing in different ways and getting confused?

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is: 1 point to activate power, 1 point to activate Strength Upgrade, 1 point to activate Range Upgrade, 1 point to activate Magnitude Upgrade: 4 points total.

 

Then, for Range and Magnitude, you can activate them multiple times, if need be, to repeat the effect (extend out to another Range Upgrade rank in range bands/affect an additional Magnitude Upgrade ranks in targets). For Strength, you cannot activate it more than once--you just affect the a silhouette up to the number of Strength Upgrades you have (0 upgrades, Sil 0, 1 upgrade, Sil 1, 2 upgrades, Sil 2, etc...).

 

So, with Force Rating 1, the most you can roll is 2 pips, which means activating the power and 1 upgrade.


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#51 Dbuntu

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:33 PM

 

Sorry, the quotes got all messed up.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. Force rating 1. Has Move Basic Power. Requires one Light pip. Has Strength upgrade four. To lift a silhouette 4 will only take one more light pip. I don't see how that is not in line with the CRB. Now last adventure he did pull a gun using move, and he should not have, as he did not have that upgrade yet, but he does now. With that upgrade and two Range upgrades, he can pull a blaster from someone from long range on two light pips. At short range he can hurl a silhouette 4 into someone doing 40 points of damage will take two force pips, and a Discipline Check (1Y, 1G) vs ranged defense. 

He does not have the 4 Strength upgrades yet, only 1, but still it doesn't matter if it is one or four upgrades.  

I fail to see how Force rating 1 is limited. Yes, most things require  2 light pips, 3 in 12 chance. Not great, but doable. 

He has a 3 in 12 chance to knock over an AT-AT at short range. I don't really see that as limiting.

 

I think a player with a single Force die is limited. I'll explain:

30 Base

10 Upgrade Strength

5 Upgrade Range

5 Control

That's 50 XP to be able to move a Silhouette 1 object at Short range and throw it for 10 damage. With only a 25% success rate if he doesn't use dark side pips. The odds go up to 33% (I think?) when using dark side pips too. Still not great, and comes at whatever cost you as a GM deem appropriate.

And then there's the Discipline check. I didn't count the XP you'd put into Discipline, but at that point it's not a big check so it's probably not a big deal.

 

For some perspective: That same investment of 50XP for a bounty hunter could get the first four ranks of Ranged Heavy; making him a pretty good shot. He's succeeding regularly at that point and can probably do so up to Long range. I don't want to bother with all the possibilities about characteristics, weapons, attachments, mods, etc. Point here is that non-force users investing this amount of XP into a single skill can potentially deal more damage and do so more consistantly than a FSE with Move. That's what I mean by limited. A Force-user can kick some ass, but any character who invests in a single thing will be able to kick ass at that thing. The difference I see as limiting is that the FSE will succeed less often.

 

Now here's another thought:

Your player is holding people up and turning them around to not face the party? To me that is fine manipulation and should required that 15XP upgrade at the bottom of the tree. It also is going to require an increasingly difficult Discipline check each round to hold the NPC up. Maybe the NPC makes an opposed check too.



#52 R2builder

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:14 PM

I like the idea about turning him to be fine manipulation. I will go with that.
RAW, there is nothing about opposed checks when it come to lifting people (objects)To use move does not require a discipline check unless I use it as a ranged weapon. Just like taking a gun from someone's hand, if they have the upgrade and can make the points, they have it. RAW. For people that want to bring up house rules for it, they can, but I don't want to house rule crap until I fully understand the system. Look at Empire, Vader grabs that gun Han no problem.

A level one force user can still toss a silhouette 4 short range for 40 damage. Granted his discipline check will suck...

So thanks for the great input, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this and forget the other systems.
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#53 Ahrimon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:29 PM

I could see lifting someone up count as an attack.  You are essentially disabling them if they are a melee.  If they're ranged, not so much, but still.



#54 R2builder

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

Per the rules, one force point to activate Move, one force point activate move upgrade. 2 pips, and they lift 'em up. Now granted, they have a 3 in 12 chance. Not great odds.

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#55 yeti1069

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

On the face of it, the lack of opposed checks with Force powers looks like it will become a problem. Sure, the success rate for rolling light side pips is kind of low, but the entire rest of the system works with difficulty and opposed checks, then you have these Force powers that allow for detection, the causing of Strain, disarming, and moving without anything but Force dice being rolled.

 

If yanking weapons out of people's hands were so easy, shouldn't we see more of that? I kind of envision a fight between a Jedi and a Sith where first one yanks a lightsaber out of the other's hand, then the other yanks it back and no one takes a swing... -_-


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#56 Ahrimon

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:12 PM

It's pretty much WAY too late for this, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to use force powers as a skill system.  Base it off an attribute, but rather than being able to buy ranks,  you only get skill ranks like the current system gets force dice.  Then just set difficulties for things and have at it.  Upgrade difficulty for this, increase difficulty for that, spend triumph on this, etc.  At most, with the current system a player could have 3 yellow, so I think it would have worked.



#57 whafrog

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:43 PM

On the face of it, the lack of opposed checks with Force powers looks like it will become a problem.

 

I have no actual idea of course, but I'm willing to bet that kind of thing is coming in F&D.  Maybe you'll be able to allocate dice to resisting, or you'll get a dice pool based on your Force Rating.  At least, I hope such a mechanic is introduced...



#58 kaosoe

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:16 PM

Here's an interesting thought I had for this character.

 

Dangle a lightsaber in his "path". Start dropping some hints that there's one out there for the taking. See if you can't get his eyes to light up. If he takes the bait, send him on a wild bantha chase of epic adventure. Don't just tease him, drop enough hints that he's going to get the prize, but you're going to make him work for it.

 

Lightsabers are pretty powerful in this game, but so is the move power, and there's no subtlety with the lightsaber. He may stick to his current shtick, but what Force Sensitive Star Wars fan can resist the glow stick?

 

Pin that idea and think on it.


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#59 Xalendar

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 07:04 AM

From my point of view hurling a silhouette 4 object at short range is suicide. A silhouette 4 object is as big as a light freighter ! If you hurl it at short range you will probably get crushed by it or hit by debris. If your are inside a building it will probably make it fall on your head. Considering the damage it will kill you.

I personally let may players go with such "unbalanced build" (everything in strength and nothing else, go for it) so then can do stupid actions, die from it and then think about being more reasonable.

 

R2Builder, if you have a problem with a player doing very stupid thing don't hesitate to kill his character in the process. In a very stupid and humiliating way (still reasonably logical). It probably won't be difficult (judging from what you wrote about your player), the other players will find this fun and your boring player will learn to think before acting.



#60 Dbuntu

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:17 AM

I like the idea about turning him to be fine manipulation. I will go with that.
RAW, there is nothing about opposed checks when it come to lifting people (objects)To use move does not require a discipline check unless I use it as a ranged weapon. Just like taking a gun from someone's hand, if they have the upgrade and can make the points, they have it. RAW. For people that want to bring up house rules for it, they can, but I don't want to house rule crap until I fully understand the system. Look at Empire, Vader grabs that gun Han no problem.

A level one force user can still toss a silhouette 4 short range for 40 damage. Granted his discipline check will suck...

So thanks for the great input, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this and forget the other systems.
You must unlearn what you have learned.

There is nothing RAW about opposed checks in the CRB, but Sam Stewart made mention of it in one of the Order 66 podcasts. Specifically, they were talking about pulling a gun out of an NPC's hand and reached a couple conclusions.

- You cannot pull the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand. Talent of not, it doesn't matter. A player should know better than to even ask this. 

- The person having his gun pulled away could potentially make an opposed check using Brawn or Agility (a fair case was made for both)

 

Here's the quick thought about grabbing a gun with the Force: If you had a BBEG Force user grab your PC's gun, is the PC just stuck with fists and his swinging cock at that point? Or are you going to let him attempt to hang on to it?

 

As for checks to lift and hold in the air using Move: The CRB does address this. I don't have the page in front of me, but it is in a side box just next to the Move write-up says something along the lines of checks to keep the object (or person) lifted.






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