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Account Syphon


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#21 PsiLAN

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:19 AM

Except you can counter it in so many ways. Also there are a lot of variables you are not considering, like spending credits to break ICEs on HQ

 

Vamp can also be countered and you have to break the ICE to get it work, but is well balanced.

On an economy point of view we have dirty laundry that may be countered and you have to spend credits on breking ICEas well, but is better balanced.

 

Both of them are runs, both of them have extra costs in the form of breaking ICE, why should Account Shiphon not be balanced?



#22 AlexFrost

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 10:25 AM

because you are thinking like they have the same use.

You use dirty laundry to add a bonus on a run you probably are going to do anyway and add a sweet bonus to it.
You use vamp to drain all credits from the corp and then run on another server.
You use account siphon to annoy the corp.



#23 rezwits

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:10 AM

 

At its very worst, Account Siphon is 3 clicks (one run, and 2 clicks to clear tags) with a 0 credit launch requirement for the runner to gain 6 credits, and the corp to lose 5 credits, an 11 credit swing.  AT WORST.  This card is way, way out of the Fing park as far as power.  The devs were smoking something toxic when this made it out of testing in its current state.  No other effects in this game come close to an 11 credit econ advantage, ESPECIALLY with a 0 launch cost.  Good lord, even if the Runner only gained the credits siphoned it would be ridiculously powerful, but then they doubled the money gained and pushed straight into blatantly stupid territory.

 

Can you stop it?  Yes, sometimes.  That doesn't alter the fact that this card is a terribly designed and completely broken POS.  MtG players can lose with a Black Lotus in their hand, which doesn't alter the fact that the card is way, way, way more powerful than anything else in the game and desperately needed to be banned/restricted.

Actually what you're describing is a best case scenario where the runner can get in to HQ for free. In most cases the runner has to pay to get in to HQ. And if you're that scared of the econ swing AS gives you  put Bernice Mai in your HQ and now the runner doesn't get any money.and a tag for all his efforts. Honesly complaining about AS (especially at this point in the game where the Corp has very good economy and is probably slightly ahead of the runners) is kind of pointless.

 

I gotta admit, you are right.  After playing MTG (off and on) for 20 years for about 12 years total.  This game is NO WHERE near needing cards to be banned.  I have not found any flaws yet with the game what so ever.  Yes you need money yes you need ice.  But honestly like a post earlier said which was spot on is "it's a meta defining card"  So what!  I remember when I 1st started playing like 5 months ago.  My 2nd game playing.  Account Siphon.  Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.

 

I was like wtf, "That card is stupid, all you have to do is just do that over and over"  And I felt the suffering of no money the whole game while I got inside jobbed and ran on like crazy.  But I learned the hard way how to play.  This is not a rule of the game, but honestly right now, you have to Hedge Fund -> HQ ICE -> R&D ICE.  GO!

 

Which is fine!  It's cool.  And if you have only 1 ICE, you gotta pick. and get lucky... (get Indexed or not) oh well

 

idk, I haven't seen any flaws with this game.  It's like saying basketball sucks cause there's a Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, or Lebron James.  It's the nature of games, there are going to be All-stars.  Not to mention the best card, the worst card, and all the others in between.

 

This game rocks.  You gotta figure out what's going on and what's up.  If you got people robbing houses in your neighborhood, better get some gates, and maybe even a security alarm.

 

That's just how it goes.  And heck if you look at the flavor, what the game is saying is:  Here are some "powerful" hackers in the cyberspace (cyberwar) and these dudes got skills.  What's the number one skill for a hacker?  To get into bank accounts and credit cards, etc, and get money!  They have to have this card, it's the name of the game.  And I love the fact that, shapers don't have it, unless 4 INF, and anarchs, just have a zeroing out effect.  It's beautiful.

 

It all makes sense...


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#24 Zorajit

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:48 PM

...After playing MTG (off and on) for 20 years for about 12 years total.  This game is NO WHERE near needing cards to be banned.  I have not found any flaws yet with the game what so ever.  Yes you need money yes you need ice.  But honestly like a post earlier said which was spot on is "it's a meta defining card"  So what!  I remember when I 1st started playing like 5 months ago.  My 2nd game playing.  Account Siphon.  Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.

 

It all makes sense...

 

 

I'm legitimately curious how you don't see an issue with a first-order optimal strategy of repeating the same action as many times as possible to not be a design flaw. The devs are big boys, they don't need you to defend them. I'll grant the pro-siphn crowd that there are a fair number of ways to counter it, although I won't grant that "spend all your money lol" is a particularly good one.

 

Further, I'd like to know what sort of power level you would see as needing external correction. What if Account Siphon were a program with [click]: Account Siphon. It seems to follow that, if repeating the play isn't in correction, then a player should have greater access to it. If A.S. allowed the player to take any number of credits from the Corp it would at first seem to be over a threshold, but again, if the corp player must always be prepared for an infinitely recurring account siphon then they should build and play around the prospect that at the end of their turn, the runner will drain their credits and receive 2x more.


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#25 Grimwalker

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:50 AM

 

I'm legitimately curious how you don't see an issue with a first-order optimal strategy of repeating the same action as many times as possible to not be a design flaw. The devs are big boys, they don't need you to defend them. I'll grant the pro-siphn crowd that there are a fair number of ways to counter it, although I won't grant that "spend all your money lol" is a particularly good one.

 

Further, I'd like to know what sort of power level you would see as needing external correction. What if Account Siphon were a program with [click]: Account Siphon. It seems to follow that, if repeating the play isn't in correction, then a player should have greater access to it. If A.S. allowed the player to take any number of credits from the Corp it would at first seem to be over a threshold, but again, if the corp player must always be prepared for an infinitely recurring account siphon then they should build and play around the prospect that at the end of their turn, the runner will drain their credits and receive 2x more.

 

The reductio ad absurdam you've presented gives you your answer: It's not free to repeat. You get the first three copies for one click, then with Same Old Thing you're taking three clicks per repeat. Deja Vu costs you money and two clicks. Levy AR Access can reset the whole ball of wax, but then you have to start drawing into them again.

 

All of the above is costing influence and constraining the design space in which you build your deck. Much more so if you're floating tags, which has the potential to lose *hard* if it runs into the wrong opposition.

 

As far as the "spend all your money" defense, I don't know that anyone's ever said it's *good,* but you tell me: if you have to lose 5 credits, would you rather the runner get +0 credits or +10 credits? Gee, let me think.


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#26 Vuud

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:28 PM

Account Siphon didn't seem a problem until they came out with Same Old Thing. I think that's the culprit, not Account Siphon. Same Old Thing being a neutral card requiring no influence, it really helps criminal a lot. If Same Old Thing was a two influence card, I doubt it would be that much used.



#27 frybender

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:59 PM

SOT basically forces the runner to float tags. So as long as the corp has some tag punishment SOT into AS is not that big a deal.


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#28 Milk

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:37 AM

So how do you guys handle tags if using account syphon so much? I was feeling quite pleased with myself after my account syphon - account syphon - SOT - account syphon, untill my opponent just clicked for 1 credit and closed accounts before I could clear the tags.

If I have to wait until I have lawyer up before I can play it then he has time to protect HQ properly, and that can't help with the same old thing runs...
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#29 Grimwalker

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:37 AM

So how do you guys handle tags if using account syphon so much? I was feeling quite pleased with myself after my account syphon - account syphon - SOT - account syphon, untill my opponent just clicked for 1 credit and closed accounts before I could clear the tags.

If I have to wait until I have lawyer up before I can play it then he has time to protect HQ properly, and that can't help with the same old thing runs...

Well, in the example you gave, the corp went from 11-15 credits to 0 credits and basically gave himself a turn where he had one click to actually advance his own win condition. Now he's probably got no money to rez ice, so you can go buck wild on your turn.

Criminal can bounce back really fast with Easy Mark, or you could play Armitage Codebusting and immediately drain six credits off of it, and give the corp a tempo hit where they have to click, click, trash to keep you off of an additional $6.

Also, a lot of the tag-me styles use Datasuckers, Mimic, Yog, and sometimes even Morningstar so that they don't have to waste money boosting the strength of their breakers. This allows them to get into servers with the money they found in the couch cushions. Desperado is also key card for Tag-me, as it pays you for doing what you'd do anyway.

Going back to what Zorajit was saying, the amount of deckbuilding constraints it imposes on you to run heavy Account Siphon is fairly substantial, so that's its own balancing factor.



#30 rezwits

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 01:56 PM

I'm legitimately curious how you don't see an issue with a first-order optimal strategy of repeating the same action as many times as possible to not be a design flaw.

 

It's not a flaw, it's just a pathway the designers want their game to flow thru.  They want hackers to be able to drain the accounts of corps.  To them they see this as an option that must be taken.  In addition they wanted this to be a primary item for Criminals.

 

Back in the MTG days they would have decks with Land Destruction.  First turn was destroy land, repeat, repeat, repeat, and then the game would proceed with just a different pace, with a struggle.  Eventually they stopped making as many land destruction cards, and then land fixing.  In addition they made different formats for the game that didn't allow some of the older LD cards.  This basically justifies what you are saying.

 

The only thing about this game, that honestly, I don't quite understand as the real hard thing to do is:  Make a choice install the 1 piece of ice in your opening 6 cards, on R&D or HQ, and it better be cheap enough for you to rez.

 

When I first started playing I got hit by siphon quite a bit, until I realized all I had to do was put an effective cheap piece of ice on HQ, when playing against criminal.  Then only every once in a while, did I really get hurt by siphon.  Now don't get me wrong, if you get hit with 3 siphon  in a row pow wow, YES YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO LOSE.

 

But putting a piece of ICE out in front of HQ and rezzing to defend, then having him Special Order, then play his ICE breaker, taking turns, then SoT getting hit by siphon, making me then put up another piece of ICE, in the next turn, and rezzing, is not some crazy order of things, it's just "PLAYING" the game.

 

Now yes if you get those runners who manage to combine this with indexing or Maker's Eye, that can lose you the game! :P  But that's the game dawg!

 

But here is a further study.  If you have to protect R&D and HQ and feel like you never get to just slap down a remote server and put 1 piece of ICE out in front of that remote and play your agenda and advance on turn 2 or 3.  The game just doesn't always play that way necessarily.  Sometimes you have to protect the HOUSE, and wait for that sweet remote setup, and this hurts you in your gut because you want to win, so do I, I have been there.

 

And then you go back to saying, "should I put more ICE in the deck or not"  And this just all sums up playing and deck constructing and tweaking the numbers going back and forth and the need for play testing more and more.

 

I don't know it feels like some people just want this game mastered in two weeks and then when they are done mastering it they will put it on the shelf and go play some other CCG, TCG, LCG...  These games don't work that way.  They are not video games that you play all week long and say I am finished and then go to the next game.

 

You have to feel frustration and then overcompensation by overly protecting HQ (and maybe R&D) and then the Metagame rears it's ugly head, where people complete lay off siphons as their main strategy, but you are all in full force protecting HQ and then lose again.

 

It's just playing this game...

 

But I can understand one point tho, BORDEM:

 

If you have played this game for over a year and have many games logged and feel like all that comes up over and over is account siphon, it's all the "monkeys" play, I can get that point :P

 

The only thing I can say to that is hopefully in the next year or so their will be more and more exciting ways to play criminal and other's will figure out ways to not use 8 or 12 of their INF for Siphons.

 

I myself don't always play siphon (especially if I run Anarch or Shaper), but when I do I have 3 SoT!! haha


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#31 XSedi

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 01:46 AM

in the end of the day there are 3 things that matters. 

first: is your deck rdy to withstand against any runner aproaching your servers?

second: can you handle your deck and play the best out of it considering the current meta?

third: are u lucky today ?(in terms of card draw and oponent playstyle ? )


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#32 Khouri

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:57 AM

first: is your deck rdy to withstand against any runner aproaching your servers?

In my experience it is highly improbable that you will be able to have a deck that can fully withstand a runner's attention. The question really becomes: what are you going to do about it?

 

They will get in, touch all your stuff and steal your agendas (especially early). Those actions have to carry consequences.

 

The more options you give yourself as a Corp (and runner) the more points 2 and 3 come into play.






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