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Account Syphon


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#21 PsiLAN

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:19 AM

Except you can counter it in so many ways. Also there are a lot of variables you are not considering, like spending credits to break ICEs on HQ

 

Vamp can also be countered and you have to break the ICE to get it work, but is well balanced.

On an economy point of view we have dirty laundry that may be countered and you have to spend credits on breking ICEas well, but is better balanced.

 

Both of them are runs, both of them have extra costs in the form of breaking ICE, why should Account Shiphon not be balanced?



#22 AlexFrost

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 10:25 AM

because you are thinking like they have the same use.

You use dirty laundry to add a bonus on a run you probably are going to do anyway and add a sweet bonus to it.
You use vamp to drain all credits from the corp and then run on another server.
You use account siphon to annoy the corp.



#23 rezwits

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:10 AM

 

At its very worst, Account Siphon is 3 clicks (one run, and 2 clicks to clear tags) with a 0 credit launch requirement for the runner to gain 6 credits, and the corp to lose 5 credits, an 11 credit swing.  AT WORST.  This card is way, way out of the Fing park as far as power.  The devs were smoking something toxic when this made it out of testing in its current state.  No other effects in this game come close to an 11 credit econ advantage, ESPECIALLY with a 0 launch cost.  Good lord, even if the Runner only gained the credits siphoned it would be ridiculously powerful, but then they doubled the money gained and pushed straight into blatantly stupid territory.

 

Can you stop it?  Yes, sometimes.  That doesn't alter the fact that this card is a terribly designed and completely broken POS.  MtG players can lose with a Black Lotus in their hand, which doesn't alter the fact that the card is way, way, way more powerful than anything else in the game and desperately needed to be banned/restricted.

Actually what you're describing is a best case scenario where the runner can get in to HQ for free. In most cases the runner has to pay to get in to HQ. And if you're that scared of the econ swing AS gives you  put Bernice Mai in your HQ and now the runner doesn't get any money.and a tag for all his efforts. Honesly complaining about AS (especially at this point in the game where the Corp has very good economy and is probably slightly ahead of the runners) is kind of pointless.

 

I gotta admit, you are right.  After playing MTG (off and on) for 20 years for about 12 years total.  This game is NO WHERE near needing cards to be banned.  I have not found any flaws yet with the game what so ever.  Yes you need money yes you need ice.  But honestly like a post earlier said which was spot on is "it's a meta defining card"  So what!  I remember when I 1st started playing like 5 months ago.  My 2nd game playing.  Account Siphon.  Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.

 

I was like wtf, "That card is stupid, all you have to do is just do that over and over"  And I felt the suffering of no money the whole game while I got inside jobbed and ran on like crazy.  But I learned the hard way how to play.  This is not a rule of the game, but honestly right now, you have to Hedge Fund -> HQ ICE -> R&D ICE.  GO!

 

Which is fine!  It's cool.  And if you have only 1 ICE, you gotta pick. and get lucky... (get Indexed or not) oh well

 

idk, I haven't seen any flaws with this game.  It's like saying basketball sucks cause there's a Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, or Lebron James.  It's the nature of games, there are going to be All-stars.  Not to mention the best card, the worst card, and all the others in between.

 

This game rocks.  You gotta figure out what's going on and what's up.  If you got people robbing houses in your neighborhood, better get some gates, and maybe even a security alarm.

 

That's just how it goes.  And heck if you look at the flavor, what the game is saying is:  Here are some "powerful" hackers in the cyberspace (cyberwar) and these dudes got skills.  What's the number one skill for a hacker?  To get into bank accounts and credit cards, etc, and get money!  They have to have this card, it's the name of the game.  And I love the fact that, shapers don't have it, unless 4 INF, and anarchs, just have a zeroing out effect.  It's beautiful.

 

It all makes sense...


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#24 Zorajit

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:48 PM

...After playing MTG (off and on) for 20 years for about 12 years total.  This game is NO WHERE near needing cards to be banned.  I have not found any flaws yet with the game what so ever.  Yes you need money yes you need ice.  But honestly like a post earlier said which was spot on is "it's a meta defining card"  So what!  I remember when I 1st started playing like 5 months ago.  My 2nd game playing.  Account Siphon.  Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.

 

It all makes sense...

 

 

I'm legitimately curious how you don't see an issue with a first-order optimal strategy of repeating the same action as many times as possible to not be a design flaw. The devs are big boys, they don't need you to defend them. I'll grant the pro-siphn crowd that there are a fair number of ways to counter it, although I won't grant that "spend all your money lol" is a particularly good one.

 

Further, I'd like to know what sort of power level you would see as needing external correction. What if Account Siphon were a program with [click]: Account Siphon. It seems to follow that, if repeating the play isn't in correction, then a player should have greater access to it. If A.S. allowed the player to take any number of credits from the Corp it would at first seem to be over a threshold, but again, if the corp player must always be prepared for an infinitely recurring account siphon then they should build and play around the prospect that at the end of their turn, the runner will drain their credits and receive 2x more.


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#25 Grimwalker

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Posted Yesterday, 06:50 AM

 

I'm legitimately curious how you don't see an issue with a first-order optimal strategy of repeating the same action as many times as possible to not be a design flaw. The devs are big boys, they don't need you to defend them. I'll grant the pro-siphn crowd that there are a fair number of ways to counter it, although I won't grant that "spend all your money lol" is a particularly good one.

 

Further, I'd like to know what sort of power level you would see as needing external correction. What if Account Siphon were a program with [click]: Account Siphon. It seems to follow that, if repeating the play isn't in correction, then a player should have greater access to it. If A.S. allowed the player to take any number of credits from the Corp it would at first seem to be over a threshold, but again, if the corp player must always be prepared for an infinitely recurring account siphon then they should build and play around the prospect that at the end of their turn, the runner will drain their credits and receive 2x more.

 

The reductio ad absurdam you've presented gives you your answer: It's not free to repeat. You get the first three copies for one click, then with Same Old Thing you're taking three clicks per repeat. Deja Vu costs you money and two clicks. Levy AR Access can reset the whole ball of wax, but then you have to start drawing into them again.

 

All of the above is costing influence and constraining the design space in which you build your deck. Much more so if you're floating tags, which has the potential to lose *hard* if it runs into the wrong opposition.

 

As far as the "spend all your money" defense, I don't know that anyone's ever said it's *good,* but you tell me: if you have to lose 5 credits, would you rather the runner get +0 credits or +10 credits? Gee, let me think.


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#26 Vuud

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Posted Yesterday, 12:28 PM

Account Siphon didn't seem a problem until they came out with Same Old Thing. I think that's the culprit, not Account Siphon. Same Old Thing being a neutral card requiring no influence, it really helps criminal a lot. If Same Old Thing was a two influence card, I doubt it would be that much used.



#27 frybender

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Posted Yesterday, 12:59 PM

SOT basically forces the runner to float tags. So as long as the corp has some tag punishment SOT into AS is not that big a deal.






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