Jump to content



Photo

Account Syphon


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 KineticOperator

KineticOperator

    Member

  • Members
  • 760 posts

Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:33 PM

Yes, yes I know Ice on HQ.  It's still easily the most broken card in the game.



#2 CommissarFeesh

CommissarFeesh

    Member

  • Members
  • 569 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:01 AM

Was there a point to this thread?



#3 Khouri

Khouri

    Member

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:55 AM

I do hate this card, but wouldn't go so far as to say that it is broken. True, if you don;t have anything that can really punish the runner for being tagged, it doesn't have all that many downsides.

 

Other than lots of ICE, panic button can mitigate some of the problems of the Syphon.

 

Any other constructive ideas?



#4 jetsetter

jetsetter

    Member

  • Members
  • 627 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:42 AM

You guys should post an image of the card or the card text, for us newbies....this isn't xwing, I don't have all the cards memorized :-)

#5 Hans Chung-Otterson

Hans Chung-Otterson

    Member

  • Members
  • 103 posts

Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

@jetsetter: Install this, or keep a tab with this open. As a former newbie, I understand the frustration when people post about cards as if everyone knows them, but in this kind of game and community, it just happens. No one is going to post what Account Siphon does. That said, for you:

 

-----

Account Siphon: 0 credit Event (Run - Sabotage)

 

Make a run on HQ. If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the Corp to lose up to 5c, then you gain 2c for each credit lost and take two tags.

-----

 

Account Siphon is a meta-defining card. You have to know what it does, you have to prepare yourself for it, and you have to play around it as best you can (have ice to rez in front of HQ, have Assets and Upgrades to rez, run burst econ Operations to recover, etc). Does that make it overpowered? No. In any card game there are going to be meta-defining cards; it's just a part of the thing, and helps to actually create a healthy play environment.

 

Most people will put it in their decks because it's good. Some people will specifically not do that, because it's popular, and search for other ways to win. It's good to have a "leader of the pack" that people can react to and form opinions and playstyles around. Of course, it's not good if the card is ridiculously powerful such that it is needed to win. Account Siphon is not this.

 

Further, Account Siphon is losing steam with every pack that comes out these days, because of increased tag punishment. The Corp is richer than ever, and floating tags is becoming more dangerous than ever. More and better meat damage means Scorch is better, which means having tags is worse. Market Research is a punch in the gut if you're tagged. Playing Account Siphon is getting riskier.

"But!" I hear you say, "Lawyer Up helps Account Siphon just when it didn't need any more help!" Well. I've played Lawyer Up a bunch, and let me tell you, it's not as great as it seems to be. What it does is fine, but you get maximum effectiveness if you play AS then LU in the same turn, and even with 3x of both in the deck, that doesn't happen as often as you'd think it does. In the meantime you're floating tags, or you're holding onto Account Siphon until you pull Lawyer Up (or vice versa) and the Corp is building its servers and icing HQ. If you're floating the tags, how many Plascretes do you have out? Only one? Power Shutdown and you're scared of death again. Or NBN just scored a 3-pointer for 4 off an Astro or SanSan in one turn.

Maybe I'm making it sound worse than it is. Account Siphon is still a great card, and likely will be for some time to come. It's something that you must consider in the current meta. But the more I play and the better I get, the less Account Siphon bothers me. I used to groan when it happened. Now my opponent pulls one off and looks at me as if for a reaction shot. So? It's Account Siphon. Good job. It's a good card, and you played it.


Edited by Hans Chung-Otterson, 22 February 2014 - 02:25 PM.

  • etherial likes this

#6 etherial

etherial

    Member

  • Members
  • 297 posts

Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:54 PM

Account Siphon: 0 credit Event (Run - Sabotage)

Bonus points for spelling the card name correctly.


  • MarthWMaster and CommissarFeesh like this

#7 Venthrac

Venthrac

    Member

  • Members
  • 901 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:15 AM

Yeah, it does feel like the cost-to-effect ratio on this card is not well-balanced. I suspect this card will eventually become restricted, but we'll see.


Edited by Venthrac, 25 February 2014 - 08:32 AM.


#8 KineticOperator

KineticOperator

    Member

  • Members
  • 760 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:55 PM

At its very worst, Account Siphon is 3 clicks (one run, and 2 clicks to clear tags) with a 0 credit launch requirement for the runner to gain 6 credits, and the corp to lose 5 credits, an 11 credit swing.  AT WORST.  This card is way, way out of the Fing park as far as power.  The devs were smoking something toxic when this made it out of testing in its current state.  No other effects in this game come close to an 11 credit econ advantage, ESPECIALLY with a 0 launch cost.  Good lord, even if the Runner only gained the credits siphoned it would be ridiculously powerful, but then they doubled the money gained and pushed straight into blatantly stupid territory.

 

Can you stop it?  Yes, sometimes.  That doesn't alter the fact that this card is a terribly designed and completely broken POS.  MtG players can lose with a Black Lotus in their hand, which doesn't alter the fact that the card is way, way, way more powerful than anything else in the game and desperately needed to be banned/restricted.


Edited by KineticOperator, 24 February 2014 - 01:57 PM.

  • Christoph and PsiLAN like this

#9 frybender

frybender

    Member

  • Members
  • 183 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

At its very worst, Account Siphon is 3 clicks (one run, and 2 clicks to clear tags) with a 0 credit launch requirement for the runner to gain 6 credits, and the corp to lose 5 credits, an 11 credit swing.  AT WORST.  This card is way, way out of the Fing park as far as power.  The devs were smoking something toxic when this made it out of testing in its current state.  No other effects in this game come close to an 11 credit econ advantage, ESPECIALLY with a 0 launch cost.  Good lord, even if the Runner only gained the credits siphoned it would be ridiculously powerful, but then they doubled the money gained and pushed straight into blatantly stupid territory.

 

Can you stop it?  Yes, sometimes.  That doesn't alter the fact that this card is a terribly designed and completely broken POS.  MtG players can lose with a Black Lotus in their hand, which doesn't alter the fact that the card is way, way, way more powerful than anything else in the game and desperately needed to be banned/restricted.

Actually what you're describing is a best case scenario where the runner can get in to HQ for free. In most cases the runner has to pay to get in to HQ. And if you're that scared of the econ swing AS gives you  put Bernice Mai in your HQ and now the runner doesn't get any money.and a tag for all his efforts. Honesly complaining about AS (especially at this point in the game where the Corp has very good economy and is probably slightly ahead of the runners) is kind of pointless.



#10 nungunz

nungunz

    Member

  • Members
  • 223 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:22 PM

Keep some pricier upgrades around to rez.  I like dumping credits to rez a SanSan or something right before the runner has the option to use AS and ditch 6 credtis quickly while gaining an advantage out of it.

Sure I go nearly broke, but the runner doesn't get a siphon off and has wasted a good card.  Plus they no probably don't have the money to run and trash SanSan.

AS is annoying as hell, incredibly powerful, and can win games.  BUT, there are many ways to defend against it.



#11 stevepop

stevepop

    Member

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 28 February 2014 - 12:49 PM

And Keyhole is more broken anyway (and doesn't come with a weird alternate spelling).

 

med_keyhole-true-colors.png



#12 Magni

Magni

    Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:01 PM

Hmm, broken - maybe maybe not - should it be on the restricted list yeah...

 

I would like to see, Datasucker & Account Siphon both put on a restricted list i see them in 90% of the decks out there


  • Venthrac likes this

+++ Engagement: Resolve Strikes +++

magni strikes with greedo for 2 unit damage to Han Solo and 1 Blast Damage.


#13 Internutt

Internutt

    Member

  • Members
  • 215 posts

Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:49 AM

No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.
  • Dexter1258 likes this

#14 Venthrac

Venthrac

    Member

  • Members
  • 901 posts

Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:59 PM

No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.

 

Eh, then the game turns into Decipher's Star Trek CCG, which had to keep inventing cards to counter other cards because the balance design was poor.

 

No thanks.



#15 Internutt

Internutt

    Member

  • Members
  • 215 posts

Posted 17 March 2014 - 07:36 AM

 

No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.

 

Eh, then the game turns into Decipher's Star Trek CCG, which had to keep inventing cards to counter other cards because the balance design was poor.

 

No thanks.

 

 

Which Netrunner isn't doing.

 

When it introduces strategies into the game, in the same cycle it makes sure that there is a counter or other just as valid strategies. Netrunner is incredibly balanced. It hasn't released in a broken state, if you think something is broken it is how you build your decks.

 

Remember: Core Set and Genesis Cycle were all designed at the same time, then split up between Core Set and the various packs. Cycles are designed at the same time, the difference comes in the meta with how each pack is given certain cards. Thus sometimes strategies with a counter card or 2 simply aren't seen for x amount of months until the Data pack with those cards is released. We haven't even seen the full potential of the pain that Anarchs can smack down on Corporations in the Second cycle because a bunch of their cards won't be available until the final data pack is released.

 

A big box does not necessarily indicate a power surge for the represented factions either. HB and Shaper got new tricks and toys, but nothing overpowered. Jinteki's box will bring the corp into a much more even playing field as they were a little behind for a while, but for the most part they were fairly balanced with everyone else. Look at NBN, they got some amazing cards this cycle along with Weyland, so they aren't being held back by lack of cards.

 

Instead of releasing Currents spread across an entire cycle, the second data pack of the Lunar Cycle will contain a bunch of them for multiple factions, making sure that runners are able to counter early on, instead of waiting for the sixth Data pack.



#16 etherial

etherial

    Member

  • Members
  • 297 posts

Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:55 AM

 

No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.

 

Eh, then the game turns into Decipher's Star Trek CCG, which had to keep inventing cards to counter other cards because the balance design was poor.

 

No thanks.

 

 

Netrunner has a few Silver Bullets, but no Magic Bullets like STCCG had. My Google Fu is failing me, but just so we're all on the same page, STCCG had a really powerful card that Decipher countered with a card that read "If your opponent played that card, you win".



#17 Internutt

Internutt

    Member

  • Members
  • 215 posts

Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:08 PM

http://www.cardgamed...and-control.png

#18 Covered in Weasels

Covered in Weasels

    Member

  • Members
  • 537 posts

Posted 20 March 2014 - 12:42 PM

Another example of a far-too-powerful card with a poorly designed counter is Rageiki from Yu-gi-oh (I'm not sure about the spelling, I haven't played since middle school). It is a spell that destroys all your opponent's monsters at literally zero cost. They printed a Trap card named Anti-Rageiki that said, "If your opponent plays Rageiki, all their monsters are destroyed instead of yours." A very clumsy attempt at balance.

Netrunner has no cards as ludicrously powerful as Rageiki, and the "silver-bullet" cards used to counter things like Scorched Earth have uses beyond thwarting a single card. I haven't yet found a card in Netrunner that is totally unstoppable.
  • AlexFrost likes this

Do not ask why you serve.  Only ask how.

 

Synonymous names include: Buried in Ferrets, Enveloped by Ermine.

Currently GMing a Dark Heresy 2.0 game and inflicting untold misery upon Martin Lockheed and company.


#19 PsiLAN

PsiLAN

    Member

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:38 AM

The fact that you can counter a card does not minimizes the fact that the card may be unbalanced.

Account Siphon introduces a credit shift of 15cr for 1 action, 11cr for 3 actions in the worst case.

A well balanced card that does something similar is vamp. You do not steal credits, but destroy them. You can drop 5cr the corp by paying 5 yourself. AS allows you for the same but instead of paying you gain 10, that is, 15cr unbalance against vamp (gain 10 instead of paying 5, 15cr profit) and only for the cost of 1 tag.

We can reason that AS is a in faction card for Criminal about they specialty, that is represented by the 4 influence cost. 

Anyway, the difference is so huge i tend to think is clearly unbalanced.

For the chance to destroy 5cr to the corp AS should have a base cost, and get a much lesser profit instead the 2*1 at this moment.

Tag punishment is not even a cost unless you make it part of the card. For example disallowing the runner to remove tags until his next turn. 

Big risks, big beneficts.


  • Christoph and Venthrac like this

#20 AlexFrost

AlexFrost

    Member

  • Members
  • 27 posts

Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:10 AM

Except you can counter it in so many ways. Also there are a lot of variables you are not considering, like spending credits to break ICEs on HQ






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS