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Challenges - Resolution / End etc.


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#1 HastAttack

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:06 AM

We've had a few issues with challanges and whether they fizzle or not ...

 

It took a while to learn that character strength is irrelevent for the purpose of attacking or defending ... it only has an impact when it comes to resolving the challenge

 

We currently assume that if there are no attackers at the resolution point that the challenge fizzles ... likewise if the attacker has no strength

 

However we are a bit confused if the above occurs but there are defenders ... does the challenge get resolved and the defender get to do things such as claim renown

 

Is there a statement which clarifies when you continue through to resolution?

 

If a challenge fizzles, does it still occur?

 

Sounds a bit strange but let say I was playing Longship Grief and the first challenge fizzled

 

Does my second attempt at a challenge still count as the first challenge

(in this case the card refers to the first challenge being initiated, so maybe not the best example)

Raider and Captain characters you control do not kneel to attack or defend during the first challenge initiated each round.
 

Scorched Earth is similar and also refers to "initiated"

Non-Army characters do not count their STR during the first challenge initiated each round

 

I ran into a query last night with Disgruntled Mercenary

Return Disgruntled Mercenary to its owner's hand at the end of the first challenge initiated each round.
 

I initiated a challenge and it fizzled after my characters were killed by Lashing Out

Did the first challenge end and did I have to return D-M back to my hand?



#2 Ratatoskr

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:01 AM

OK. First of all, "fizzle" is not a technical term.

 

The one rule that matters here is this (FAQ page 12):

 

(3.35) No Characters in a Challenge
If, at any time after a challenge begins
and attackers are declared, there are no
participating characters in that challenge, the
challenge ends immediately without resolution.

 

So, the only case in which a challenge "fizzles" (i.e. ends immediately without resolution) is if there are no characters in the challenge at all. As long as there are participating characters, you go through the steps of challenge resolution - determine winner, challenge results, unopposed, renown, passives (incl. deadly, vigilant, vengeful etc.), responses. Just remember that a player can only win a challenge  if he counts at least 1 STR, and if he has at least one participating character.

 

A challenge that ends without resolution has still been initiated, so the "fizzled" challenge would count against Longship Grief and Scorched Earth.

 

Disgruntled Mercenary is a bit more complicated, and I'm not sure about it. It depends on how the "at the end of the first challenge initiated" wording is supposed to be interpreted. If "at the end of the challenge" is synonymous with "during the challenge resolution framework action window", then Disgruntled Mercenary would stay on the table until the first challenge initated in the *next* round is resolved.

If, however, "at the end of the first challenge initiated" is taken literally, then Disgruntled Mercenary would be returned to hand in the passives step of the action window that caused the challenge to "fizzle", i.e. the action that removed all participating characters from the challenge.

Personally, I see no reason why the wording wouldn't be taken literally, so I would rule that DM returns to hand when a challenge "fizzles". After all, the FAQ entry I quoted specifically mentions that the challenge "ends". But I'd like to hear ktom's input on this.



#3 HastAttack

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:04 AM

thanks Ratatoskr ... I'd have to agree with you on all points, given the "fizzle" text refers to the challenge ending

 

Not a technical term? ... I don't know if any of the terms are technically correct - Burn, Mill, Choke ... but they are the best words that we have :)



#4 ktom

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:41 AM

You are correct. Disgruntled Mercenary returns to hand when the challenge ends, which doesn't require the challenge to actually resolve (such as when all participating characters are removed).
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#5 Ratatoskr

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:43 AM

You are correct. Disgruntled Mercenary returns to hand when the challenge ends, which doesn't require the challenge to actually resolve (such as when all participating characters are removed).

Thank you, ktom! Being right is the only way to be! ;)



#6 HastAttack

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 06:15 AM

(3.35) No Characters in a Challenge
If, at any time after a challenge begins and attackers are declared, there are no participating characters in that challenge, the
challenge ends immediately without resolution.

 

If I declare an attack and the defender removes my attacker(s) from the challenge as their first player action - does this mean that the challenge ends immediately and I lose any opportunity to declare naval attackers?

 

I assume this is the case, that is what the text says, but just wanted to re-confirm - thanks



#7 -Istaril

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:46 AM

Yup.






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