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#81 UHF

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:12 PM

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd.  There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

Especially considering that range isn't a factor.   Bagged dat dot!



#82 MosesofWar

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:45 PM

Sorry, Luke and Han are looking at explosions not aiming, and if you actually watch it they are firing in the right direction before the TIEs are even in visual view of the windows.

 

You're wrong on the targeting also, Luke and Vader pull a trigger and only when the targeting computer displays a lock.  They aren't aiming, they are simply making the decision to fire.

 

Physics doesn't take a complete holiday in my games.  The human eye can't perceive something moving at thousands of mph at the distances in these clips and it certainly can't make the brain react in time.  If people can react to targets moving that fast in your game then there is no reason they can't see a bullet in flight, because bullets move a fraction of the speed of these ships.

 

These are physics in our universe, it's a sci-fi fantasy world and all things aren't held equal. If we want to go by the physics of our world, the majority of things in StarWars wouldn't make sense, at all.

 

Targeting computers are mentioned here:

 

http://starwars.wiki...geting_computer

 

It's nothing more spectacular than anything than something in fighter planes from the 70's and 80's. If you notice it says the target is 'vulnerable'  when the sights are lined up.. There is no 'locking', Proton Torpedos 'lock', the blasters still have to be lined up and aimed by the pilot, or gunner like a standard 'sight' - the difference here is the siting is digital. The concept is as simple as the gunners tracking sensors movement along the ship and having knowledge of the firing range. There are plenty of misses by Luke, Han and Vader, because they have to use their own hand-eye coordination, piloting skills and lining up sights to hit a target with Blasters and Lasers. This is why they aren't looking down, at the computer - their eyes shift to space when a TIE gets in range, and back to the computer when they make a kill shot.

 

Here's an excerpt from the IN-344-B "Sightline" Holographic Imaging System used by the X-Wings in A New Hope:

 

 

The device simplified what could be seen by the pilot, making computer-assisted targeting a much easier task. However, it also possessed a chance of causing a near-miss, as evidenced by Garven Dreis, the "Red Leader" of Red Squadron during the Battle of Yavin, firing off two proton torpedoes at the thermal exhaust port during the Trench Run upon getting a lock, but instead hit some yards away from the exhaust port

 

It says specific 'making computer-assisted targeting a much easier task' implying that the systems used on Targeting Computers aided in making firing decisions, but reliance on skills and sighting down targets without the systems were the primary means of operating lasers. It also indicates that systems like this were used more often with weapons that could 'lock-on' such as proton torpedos.

 

http://starwars.wiki..._imaging_system

 

Also an excerpt from the ANq 3.6 Tracking Computer:

 

The Fabritech ANq 3.6 tracking computer was a targeting computer commonly installed in the Rebel Alliance T-65 X-wing starfighter and the B-wing starfighter. Information was relayed to it via a multiplexer array. It could track up to 1,000 moving sublight objects, acquire 20 possible targets, and could be programmed for extra sensitivity to 120 specific sensor signatures. As such, its tactical imagery was commmonly used in X-wings to target, aim, and launch the X-wing's payload of MG7-A proton torpedoes.

 

http://starwars.wiki...acking_computer

 

Here's St2x Targetting System used by Xizor's ships, which is probably the closest to a sophisticated targetting system for laser weapons, but it's not explicitly mentioned. I'm going to assume they are effected because the article mentions 'all' weapons:

 

The St2x targeting computer was a highly advanced device used on Prince Xizor's Virago. Rather than developing new and potentially illegal weaponry for use on the Virago, the MandalMotors design team focused their energies on making existing weapon systems more effective. Their final design combined the very advanced St2x with an experimental laser sighting system. Once installed, the package was capable of providing targeting information to the pilot even while undergoing complex maneuvers. The system was so advanced that virtually any weapon systems installed on the Virago would perform at levels far higher than their manufacturer's specifications.

 

http://starwars.wiki...geting_computer

 

This is a one-off case of super advanced targeting computers on one ship, in the EU.

 

In any case, I'm bringing this up because the reliance on targeting computers for gunners to sight out laser shots isn't something present in StarWars and also trying to place our physics into StatWars isn't exactly a fair way to explain why or what things do in StarWars. That's like trying to explain why Dragons or Magic exist in a non-sci-fi Fantasy game. George Lucas could simply say, humans in the StarWars Universe have been using this technology for so long, they've adapted to sighting things that move at 1000's of miles and hour, and we'd go with it.


“I’ve been waiting for you, Obi-wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master”

 


#83 hencook

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:55 PM

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd.  There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

 

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

 

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

 

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

 

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.


Edited by hencook, 24 February 2014 - 01:55 PM.

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#84 UHF

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:05 PM

MosesofWar: I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.

 

Most targeting systems today are assisted or fully automatic.  Meaning... Star Wars isn't off.  (Just distances and speeds ... lets leave those in fantasy and acceptable, OK.)

 

What all this means is that feeding false targeting information to a targeting assitant, should muck things up plenty. The Gunner is looking the wrong way.

 

Hencock: The current line of thought on Warp Drives is the Alcubierre Drive.

http://en.wikipedia....lcubierre_drive


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#85 MosesofWar

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

MosesofWar: I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.

 

 

I was responding to this statement:

 

 

In all these examples it is clear no one is using their eyeballs other than to look at targeting scopes.

 

Targeting systems in StarWars seems less commonly used that what we've got around today, most likely more for a 'cinematic' reason, rather than any type of mechanical or physical reason. I was putting those references up to show, most targeting systems are used for 'lock-on' weaponry, not necessarily laser fire. Even in the games like X-Wing or Rogue Squadron we see a lack of Laser related targeting computers or assistance; we get 'reticules', but not any type of auto-aiming system like in Halo. It's strange, but it's Space Fantasy...

 

That's probably why the description for 'Slice Enemy's Systems' has a consequence to turn off weapons, but not add setback dice/upgrade the difficulty of Gunnery Attacks...


Edited by MosesofWar, 24 February 2014 - 02:21 PM.

“I’ve been waiting for you, Obi-wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master”

 


#86 2P51

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:31 PM

 

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd.  There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

 

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

 

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

 

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

 

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

 

You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success.  The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion.  1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews.  Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.



#87 MosesofWar

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:03 PM

 

You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success.  The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion.  1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews.  Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.

 

 

You're 100% correct here, even with escorts, WW2 bombers got wtf pwned. The concept of someone manually sighting even a slow moving object from another slow moving object, without knowledge of where the gun velocity would take the bullets is a difficult task. StarWars is fantasy, the same type of fantasy where you see in movies that the hero can hit all his shot out of a gun, on target, but none of his adversaries can hit him. There's just stuff in fantasy that can't well be explained.


Edited by MosesofWar, 24 February 2014 - 03:58 PM.

“I’ve been waiting for you, Obi-wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master”

 


#88 2P51

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:19 PM

 

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd.  There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

 

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

 

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

 

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

 

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

 

I'd never tell anyone else how to run their game, and if having the physical ability to visually target and shoot something moving 10x faster than a bullet is acceptable to some then so be it.



#89 UHF

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:17 PM

 

 

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd.  There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

 

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

 

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

 

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

 

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

 

You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success.  The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion.  1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews.  Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.

 

None of what you say is true.  You are talking about what was portrayed in movies, not what actually happened.

 

I thought I'd already posted this video;

 

Initally the Germans had the electronic warfare advantage in the form of Radar. This was used to direct fighters to the bombers and shoot the bombers.  Initially...

 

The purpose of allied electronic warfare was to send enemy fighter planes to the wrong location. 29 minutes in is a funny story about detecting german fighters with radar...

 

30 minutes in discusses how radically different bombing runs had become by the end of the war.  (I never saw an ELINT plane in WWII movies, did you?  Geeks with consoles not cool enough?  Yet they won the war, not the bombers.)

 

Furthermore it was not possible for bombers to bomb in Europe... they developed air to ground radar to cut through all that cloud cover.... and the Germans developed air to ground radar detectors...  (19 - 20 minutes in)  Gee, I only saw optical sights in the movies.

http://en.wikipedia...._radar_detector


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#90 MosesofWar

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:42 AM

Pretty interesting history lesson UHF.


“I’ve been waiting for you, Obi-wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master”

 


#91 UHF

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:39 AM

Pretty interesting history lesson UHF.

Thanks...   And to be fair to all comments disagreeing about WWII...

 

Lucas would have grown up watching the movie version of bomber runs.



#92 2P51

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:49 AM

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd.  There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

 
This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".
 
NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.
 
I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.
 
BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.
You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success.  The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion.  1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews.  Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.
None of what you say is true.  You are talking about what was portrayed in movies, not what actually happened.
 
I thought I'd already posted this video;

 
Initally the Germans had the electronic warfare advantage in the form of Radar. This was used to direct fighters to the bombers and shoot the bombers.  Initially...
 
The purpose of allied electronic warfare was to send enemy fighter planes to the wrong location. 29 minutes in is a funny story about detecting german fighters with radar...
 
30 minutes in discusses how radically different bombing runs had become by the end of the war.  (I never saw an ELINT plane in WWII movies, did you?  Geeks with consoles not cool enough?  Yet they won the war, not the bombers.)
 
Furthermore it was not possible for bombers to bomb in Europe... they developed air to ground radar to cut through all that cloud cover.... and the Germans developed air to ground radar detectors...  (19 - 20 minutes in)  Gee, I only saw optical sights in the movies.
http://en.wikipedia...._radar_detector

55,000 bomber crew killed in action was not from movies. Im also aware of the various EW options that existed. The context of this conversation for clarification was not bombing by bombers but rather the various gun crews defending the aircraft. They very much used open sight machine guns and they were shot to pieces. It didn't work on prop fighters for beans it certainly would not work on star fighters moving thousands of mph.

#93 MosesofWar

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:02 PM

 

They very much used open sight machine guns and they were shot to pieces. It didn't work on prop fighters for beans it certainly would not work on star fighters moving thousands of mph.

 

It does in the movies... And in made up Universes with things like 'the Force', Sarlaccs, guys that can dual-wield pistols and shoot accurately while flying around on jet packs, laser swords, moon-sized space stations that can destroy planets with a single blast and not be effected by a sudden change in gravity, wookiees, massive walking death machines, spaceships that can VTOL off the ground and fly through an atmosphere, tractor beams, bacta, transformers, hyperspace, a multitude of space faring alien species...

 

You're right, it'd be tough for people to sight out objects moving 1000's of mph... But this is StarWars, it's a Fantasy Universe, not real life. Sometimes, things simply don't need real-world, mechanical explanations (...midiclorians...) for how they work.


Edited by MosesofWar, 25 February 2014 - 12:03 PM.

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“I’ve been waiting for you, Obi-wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master”

 


#94 2P51

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:16 PM

I also get the fantasy element of Star Wars but the mechanical element was kind of the point to whole thread and getting slicers more involved in ship combat and what they could do. Honestly this reply is mostly courtesy as I've added you to the ignore list with ErikB and HappyDaze as it seems more often than not you're mostly contrary for the sake of it.

#95 UHF

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:00 PM


55,000 bomber crew killed in action was not from movies. Im also aware of the various EW options that existed. The context of this conversation for clarification was not bombing by bombers but rather the various gun crews defending the aircraft. They very much used open sight machine guns and they were shot to pieces. It didn't work on prop fighters for beans it certainly would not work on star fighters moving thousands of mph.

 

My point is that they didn't aim with their eyes.  They couldn't.

 

They needed to know where to look.  That would be the ELINT radar planes radioing in the attack to all the planes...  "Look to the right at 6 Oclock."  In fact there was quite a lot of radio chatter.  (I wonder if anyone gave them false messages.)

 

Interesting... No way to fire back...  If you guide a fighter in from below, the allies were defenseless and couldn't see it.  If it also has upward firing guns, well bad news.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Schräge_Musik

 

I'm also saying that the Germans couldn't attack with their eyes.  In fact they didn't.  If they fell for the chaff false voice orders, fake navigation signals, they were 200 miles back, at the wrong altitude with nothing to shoot at.

 

No 100 Group, RAF did this. Wow... talk about strain, the German night fighter crews were so afraid of landing, they ditched their planes.  (Hmm... friend of the family was a Mosquito Pilot downed in WWII.)

http://en.wikipedia....._100_Group_RAF

 

Their bombers were similarly affected by their use of guidance communications;

http://en.wikipedia....le_of_the_Beams

 

Here's the allies confusing the Germans with fake voice communications;

http://en.wikipedia....peration_Corona



#96 2P51

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:04 PM

Ok. Fighters and bomber guns zeroed their weapons. I agree radar guidance and radio directional detection was used. However, when bombers fired waist guns an turrets or fighters used their guns, they were aiming with their eyes.

#97 MosesofWar

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:06 PM

My point is that they didn't aim with their eyes.  They couldn't.

 

They needed to know where to look.  That would be the ELINT radar planes radioing in the attack to all the planes...  "Look to the right at 6 Oclock."  In fact there was quite a lot of radio chatter.  (I wonder if anyone gave them false messages.)

 

Interesting... No way to fire back...  If you guide a fighter in from below, the allies were defenseless and couldn't see it.  If it also has upward firing guns, well bad news.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Schräge_Musik

 

I'm also saying that the Germans couldn't attack with their eyes.  In fact they didn't.  If they fell for the chaff false voice orders, fake navigation signals, they were 200 miles back, at the wrong altitude with nothing to shoot at.

 

No 100 Group, RAF did this. Wow... talk about strain, the German night fighter crews were so afraid of landing, they ditched their planes.  (Hmm... friend of the family was a Mosquito Pilot downed in WWII.)

http://en.wikipedia....._100_Group_RAF

 

Their bombers were similarly affected by their use of guidance communications;

http://en.wikipedia....le_of_the_Beams

 

Here's the allies confusing the Germans with fake voice communications;

http://en.wikipedia....peration_Corona

 

 

This actually seems very much like StarWars with various fighters and command centers communicating frantically with each other over positioning in a battle. I think there's a couple of times when some of the fighters shout that they 'can't see um' indicating that their opponents had navigated into an areas where sensors couldn't pick them up, or they literally couldn't see... Or both...


Edited by MosesofWar, 26 February 2014 - 07:59 AM.

“I’ve been waiting for you, Obi-wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master”

 


#98 UHF

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:26 PM

Its pretty obvious where I stand on all this.

 

I don't thinking Slicing as described is out of keeping with the game.  Its not very powerful.  Most definitely don't ever let someone do anything they want with a critial Slice.  The alternate description of launching chaff, or confusing the enemy with a burst of RF or light is more than likely what is going on, and the net result is the effects as described (maybe that gun can't fire 'cause its aimed the wrong way).  Slicer gear is also described this way...  its bits of stuff modifed to break into things.  (Our Slicer is a Pit Droid, but he's got one of those rotating communicationg links like R2.)

 

If you have an expert Slicer on the crew its no biggy.  If he gets any good, toss more bad stuff at'm.  Delaying a concussion missile by one round has saved their bacon's on more than one occasion.  And the player has an awesome time.  That's the important thing.


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