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Darkstar and Narrow Escape


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#1 mdc273

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:16 PM

Can someone point out where it says that cards discarded to cancel Narrow Escape do not count as being discarded from your hand (i. e. they count as being placed in the discard pile) or send the question to FFG (they have never responded to any of mine)?



#2 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

Can someone point out where it says that cards discarded to cancel Narrow Escape do not count as being discarded from your hand (i. e. they count as being placed in the discard pile) or send the question to FFG (they have never responded to any of mine)?

 

FAQ (4.12): The Hand

Any reference made to a player’s “hand” refers to that hand as a single entity, and does not refer to any of the individual cards in that hand. Thus, it is possible to discard a “hand” of 0 cards. Further, if you do discard your “hand,” you are not considered to have discarded any of the individual cards that make up that hand (for the purpose of initiating other card effects).

 

Revealing your hand is not considered revealing any of the individual cards in your hand, and adding a card to a revealed hand is not considered revealing that card.

 

 

Narrow Escape forces you to discard your entire hand. Therefore, under the FAQ entry quoted above, passives and responses are to "after you discard your hand," not "after a card is discarded from your hand." So if Darkstar is part of the hand you discard, the play restrictions for his "...would be discarded from your hand or deck..." replacement effect are not met. He doesn't go into play.



#3 mdc273

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:41 PM

Thanks. So they're still discarded, it just bypasses triggering other effects. Weird... I'm not a fan of this interaction at all.


Edited by mdc273, 18 February 2014 - 02:43 PM.


#4 HastAttack

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:15 AM

I'm not a fan of Darkstar, when my opponents have him ... anything that curtails his ability is a good thing



#5 mdc273

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:25 PM

I actually think discard Darkstar is just not good card design for this game, so I'm right there with you. I just wish it made more intuitive sense.

 

I bet most new players will throw Darkstar into play off of Narrow Escape because it just makes sense that he's being discarded from your hand. You only have one hand in the game. Discarding your hand logically leads to having no hand for the rest of the game as there are no rules to acquire a new one. It's very convoluted. For example, you draw cards and add them to your hand, but you no longer have a hand since you discarded it.

 

This is obviously reductio ad absurdum, but the point of reductio ad absurdum is to point out problems with a concept.



#6 Bomb

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:44 PM

@mdc273 -

You always have a hand.  When it's empty, you have a hand of 0 cards.



#7 Venters

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:13 PM

Does it matter if you only have Darkstar in your hand when you use Narrow Escape?

 

Or does it still count as a whole hand discard and not just a single card discard?



#8 ktom

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:06 PM

"Any reference made to a player’s 'hand' refers to that hand as a single entity, and does not refer to any of the individual cards in that hand."

 

0, 1, or 60. Discarding your "hand" will not create "after a card is discarded from you hand" response opportunities.



#9 HastAttack

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:10 AM

I'm actually suprised how popular Narrow Escape is - wouldn't be my restricted card of  choice

 

However, you can use it to save all characters killed during the phase - it's not a direct response to e.g. Valaar

 

So in theory someone could Valaar, you could then find a way of discarding Darkstar and thus put him into play ... maybe triggering Maester of the Sun

 

Response: If it is Summer, kneel Maester of the Sun and discard a card from your hand to save a House Martell character from being killed or discarded from play.
 

Then at the end of the phase, discard the rest of your hand to restore all the characters killed that phase



#10 ktom

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:19 AM

Then at the end of the phase, discard the rest of your hand to restore all the characters killed that phase


You're going to want to read the card again. That's not how Narrow Escape works. Discarding the hand is your opponent's option leave everything dead.

#11 HastAttack

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:30 AM

whoops - well I don't play Narrow Escape ... but it sounds like I would want my opponent to

 

if I am Martell, I can Valaar, save a character by "discarding" Darkstar and then sit back and see if my oponent wants to play Narrow Escape



#12 -Istaril

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:50 AM

whoops - well I don't play Narrow Escape ... but it sounds like I would want my opponent to

 

if I am Martell, I can Valaar, save a character by "discarding" Darkstar and then sit back and see if my oponent wants to play Narrow Escape

 

 

Not entirely sure what you're getting at. First of all, Darkstar would then die (since he's present and unsaved at the resolution of Valar), and secondly I'm not entirely sure how Narrow Escape factors into this at all?



#13 HastAttack

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:10 AM

I was just thinking of ways of being able to discard my whole hand but still getting Darkstar in play

 

Is my timing incorrect then ... if Valaar is play and I save one of my characters, resulting in Darkstar entering play, he dies as part of the Valaar?

 

I can see this is the same as per kneeling a clansman to save Tyrion - where if my knelt clansmen cannot be killed, the clansman that I just knelt is also safe from being killed

 

It's a bit unintuitive that the kill happens after the save ... I would have thought you wouldn't be able to save someone until after they are "killed" ... but the save pre-empts being killed



#14 sWhiteboy

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:17 AM

The best way to think of it is:  A save is a cancel for that specific instance of killing.  That's why you have to save before the kill resolves.

 

So yes, if you bring in Darkstar via Maester of the Sun's saving during a valar, then Darkstar will die.


Edited by sWhiteboy, 20 February 2014 - 10:18 AM.


#15 ktom

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:30 AM

I was just thinking of ways of being able to discard my whole hand but still getting Darkstar in play

 

You've got the right idea - discard Darkstar individually before Narrow Escape is played.

 

 

It's a bit unintuitive that the kill happens after the save ... I would have thought you wouldn't be able to save someone until after they are "killed" ... but the save pre-empts being killed

 

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. If the kill happened before the save, wouldn't the character be dead before it was saved? That's resurrection, not salvation. ;)

 

Seriously, though, both views are technically correct because saves are interrupts. They happen "after the kill" in the sense that they cannot be used until after the kill effect has initiated. But they happeb "before the kill" in the sense that they must be resolved before the kill effect resolves - so you know which characters the kill effect cannot be applied to.

 

I've found that the best way to think of saves is shoving someone out the way after the gun is fired. You can't put the bullet back into the gun, but you can make it miss the target. For Valar, the analogy might be better with a grenade or a bomb. It's still going to hit - the best you can hope is to avoid the shrapnel.

 

Your timing is absolutely correct, and the character you save by discarding Darkstar with Maester of the Sun avoids the shot. Unfortunately for Darkstar, getting that character to safety put him into the path of the bullet. The Tyrion/Timett thing is a little different because, in pushing Tyrion out of the way, Timett gets body armor, so the shot bounces off.



#16 mdc273

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:29 PM

That bullet analogy is spot on. Nice.



#17 Bomb

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:01 PM

Yeah, I applaud at your analogies here ktom. 

 

~Now we just need a bomb shelter location... guess it's the Iron Mines?


Edited by Bomb, 20 February 2014 - 02:01 PM.


#18 HastAttack

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:40 AM

Bit convoluted but what happens if I have two copies of Maester of the Sun

 

I do the first save, kneeling MofS and discarding a card, Darkstar, who gets put into play

 

Can I now kneel a second MofS and save Darkstar?

 

I assume I can but not sure whether I might be missing something - thanks



#19 ktom

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:21 AM

And... welcome to theory crafting.

Seriously, though, yes. There is nothing stopping you from saving Darkstar if he comes into play as part of a save effect.

#20 stormwolf27

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:43 AM

And... welcome to theory crafting.

Seriously, though, yes. There is nothing stopping you from saving Darkstar if he comes into play as part of a save effect.

Exactly, because you resolve each save/cancel response individually.

 

In a nutshell:

 

Player A reveals Valar Morghulis, and, somehow still ends up first player.

 

Player A is playing Martell and has two copies of Maester of the Sun in play. He kneels one, then discards Darkstar from his hand, putting Darkstar into play instead of in his discard to save the second one from being killed. (this is because first player gets first response to framework actions, which I believe resolving the when revealed of a plot is... I might be wrong there... and if I am, just swap the order of player A and player B reactions)

 

Player B has a couple of unique characters with dupes on them. He/She discards one dupe from one character to save them from being killed.

 

Player A kneels the second Maester and discards a card from his hand to save Darkstar from being killed.

 

Player B discards one dupe from another character to save them from being killed.

 

 

 

 

This continues back and forth until neither player has anymore save/cancel responses to trigger/play or both pass on the opportunity, at which point, both players are able to trigger regular responses and passives to the resolution of Valar, before all cards go moribund.


Edited by stormwolf27, 25 February 2014 - 11:46 AM.

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