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New Jinteki hotness


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#1 Venthrac

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:20 AM

http://www.fantasyfl...ychic-field.png

 

http://www.fantasyfl...ntanglement.png

 

Can't wait to play with these two. 

 

Source:

 

http://www.fantasyfl...s.asp?eidn=4655

 

Things are looking way up for the bonsai!



#2 borithan

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:41 AM

The trap still has the problem that it isn't advance able. Unless the Runner is derping why would they think it is an asset they want to destroy when you haven't rezzed it, or an agenda when you haven't advanced it?

 

That agenda is interesting with lots of small point agendas...


Edited by borithan, 19 February 2014 - 05:42 AM.


#3 Venthrac

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:30 AM

Because it could be a 3/1 agenda played on the Corp's last click. Which, incidentally, is the best time to play one.

#4 Grimwalker

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:02 PM

Not necessarily. Sometimes you want to Install/Advance/Advance, which presents the runner with difficult decisions:

It could be an 4-damage Junebug.
It could be an Agenda--such as a Fetal AI or a Nisei.
It could be a Cerebral Overwriter.
It could be a Ronin that will be charged and ready by next turn.

 

Borithan's objection matters even less nowadays, since you can lay down a non-advanceable trap with Mushin No Shin, or advance any card using the Tennin ID. Or an advanceable trap. Or a Plan B. For extra lulz, play Mushin No Shin and then shuffle up a Plan B, a Junebug, and a Fetal AI from your hand and lay it down unseen with 3 counters on it. You don't know, they don't know.

Jinteki is all about presenting the Runner with unacceptable risks. You can't run on it, because if it's a trap it will open up a window in which they could score or flatline. The game changes the more points the corp has, because now you *have* to run on any card that's been advanced, because it could be the game winning agenda. More than once I have forced a run even when the runner has said "I know that's a Snare, but I don't have a choice."



#5 Venthrac

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:26 PM

I used to play very much the way you describe, Grim. My experience was that, in the case of a double-advanced card, the Runner would run it early, take some net damage and then draw back up. A Junebug with two advancements wasn't lethal in such a case, just annoying. Ronin would get blown away (one reason I no longer play with it).

 

The scariest cards in Jinteki's arsenal have been from out-of-faction, at least until now. I'm looking at you, Cerebral and Aggressive Secretary.

 

Jinteki has always been the faction that's relied most on the Runner making mistakes to win. If Honor and Profit changes anything, I'd like to see it change that.



#6 borithan

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:23 AM

Ok, I hadn't understood the new ID as allowing you to place advancement tokens on cards that couldn't normally be advanced (and I wasn't aware of Mushin-no-Shin, or that it would allow you to do similar things). This will start to make non-advanceable traps a bit more useful (aside from being good to have in hand or R&D to get inquisitive runners). However, like most of the traps it will still only matter if you have actually got the runner under pressure.

 

Playing a thing on the third click, it possibly being a 3/1 only works if the runner is under pressure. If you haven't scored yet, or have only got a few points, they can afford to allow you to try and score it. If you don't it is fairly obviously a trap. Ok, it could be a double bluff, but that is a risky play unless you have got a good way to prevent them stealing it, or really punish them for doing it. Both of those usually require time, which gives the runner more time to build up their own stuff in order to make your traps increasingly irrelevant ("Oh, 4 net damage... I have everything I need in play, so who cares which of these cards I throw away?"), and give them more opportunity to scope it out. Same goes for a play/advance/advance. Only works if the runner has to run, as they can wait to see if you advance it further if they are not. And if it is a trap you need extra cash around in order to set the trap off... if you have no money the Runner cares little what your traps are. This means having an economy, which Jinteki have problems with.

 

Ronin only works if you either have 2, or the runner cares what they have in their hand. By the time you can play Ronin and not expect to see it just blown up before you use it, I have usually found the latter is not true, so you have to build towards 2 in order to get the kill... which just gives the runner time to find and blow up the first one.

 

Basically, Jinteki only work if the runner is under pressure, and frankly I have found it very hard for anyone playing Jinteki to put the Runner under pressure. In fact, usually I find it the other way round. Jinteki take too long to set up, and so runners are nicking stuff from them before they have a chance to do anything, and so they find themselves in the unenviable position of "if I let the runner steal this they will win", while the runner is still going "Well, that is 3 points at most, so either I can run head first into a blender wall, possibly killing myself in the process, or I can see if he advances it any further while I save up enough in terms of money and cards to make sure I can survive whatever it does to me." Jinteki only tend to win if the corp is lucky (eg. a run bad card draw for the runner), or the runner makes silly mistakes.

 

Now, I will admit I am not the best player (and shouldn't really play Jinteki, but I really want to get them to work, as I think they are the most interesting of the factions), but the general consensus among the group I have played with is that Jinteki really struggle, and are by far the weakest corp. Even with the upcoming expansion there weren't any minds changing on that.


Edited by borithan, 20 February 2014 - 04:29 AM.


#7 Smilingknight

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:45 PM

Is reveal the same thing as expose? I know that the out come is the same, but whether they are different rules-wise will make a difference on that new ambush psi asset

#8 nungunz

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:04 PM

Different



#9 Internutt

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:25 PM

Is reveal the same thing as expose? I know that the out come is the same, but whether they are different rules-wise will make a difference on that new ambush psi asset

 

Expose is when an already installed card (for example, a piece of ICE or a card installed to the server the ice is protecting) is revealed to the runner.

 

Reveal is used when a player searches their deck for a particular card through another card's effect(known as a tutor) and places it into their hand after showing it to their opponent. For example, Archived Memories you have to reveal the face up discarded card you are placing into your hand (though it does not say it on the card itself, all face up cards in the discard pile are public information at all times).

 

It's a way of balancing the effect of a tutor. Sure, you get the card you want, but your opponent gets a heads up to the strategy you are planning as a result.


Edited by Internutt, 20 February 2014 - 04:25 PM.


#10 Venthrac

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:00 PM

Right, expose is a very specific form of revealing something that is clearly referenced on a card by using the word "expose". I assume if the action being used does not say "Expose blah blah..." then that action would not trigger an installed Psychic Field.



#11 Internutt

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:11 PM

ffg_satellite-uplink-trace-amount.pngffg_infiltration-core.pngffg_snitch-cyber-exodus.png

 

Satellite Uplink exposes installed, but unrezzed cards. So, if they expose Psychic field, then it's effect is triggered. Netrunner is all about balance, every strategy has a counter strategy and Exposing cards is a fantastic way of forcing Corporations to rez ice (through the new Criminal Console) or avoiding traps laid down by the Corporation. So, Psychic field exists to punish Criminals who expose cards before running.


Edited by Internutt, 20 February 2014 - 05:13 PM.

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