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#121 Darramouss

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:37 PM

Choose an enemy ship at range 1-2. If you are within that ships firing arc, you may acquire a free target lock. Then, you may perform a free boost action.
Okay, so, lets choose our ship. Okay, that guy. Are we within his firing arc? No. Boo, no acquiring a target lock. Okay, now i can boost.


Sorry, but that's the worst interpretation of a card I've seen. Conditions on cards should be read sequentially with failed conditions prohibiting further effects on the card from taking effect. You can't pick the bits you like, especially after a condition on the card has failed.
This card needs to be examined in the order it is written.ACTION: Choose an enemy ship at Range 1-2. This is the first condition on the card. If it's not satisfied then further text on the card is not considered. If it is satisfied, proceed to the next statement on the card.If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship. This is the second condition and first effect on the card. This sentence cannot be considered unless the first condition has been satisfied. If the second condition is satisfied then the player may acquire TL. TL is not mandatory.Then, you may perform a free boost action. Reaching this sentence implies that the first condition and second condition have been met and the player has chosen to acquire or not to acquire a TL. This timing is shown by the use of the word "then". At this stage, not before, the player may perform a free boost. Note that there is no mention of whether the TL is mandatory for the boost to occur.
If the TL was mandatory for the player to be allowed to boost then the final sentence should read "If you acquire TL you may then perform a free boost action." A sentence such as this would require conditions one and two to be met and force the TL to be acquired before a boost is allowed.
The text on this card is written clearly and, if followed as written, does not actually stipulate that TL is required to boost. Without such a stipulation on the card, the requirement for TL to occur before the boost can only arise from player misinterpretation.
you DO realize you're just repeating what I said, right? To quote myself, "Note that in the correct text of the card, the only thing conditional in this text is the acquisition of the target lock."
 
Oh and as a side note, I'm not "choosing the bits I like". Since I don't play rebels, only Imperials, then I actually benefit from a more restrictive ruling on this card. I'm just callin' it like I see it.


Actually, no, I didn't repeat what you said. You stated that you could be out of the enemy's arc and still boost. I'm saying that being in the enemy's arc is the second condition and that failing that condition prohibits any further text on the card from taking effect, including the boost. You must meet that condition in order to choose to acquire a TL. Once you've chosen you get to choose to boost or not regardless of whether you acquired TL or not.

If you're out of the enemy's arc and still boosting you're choosing to ignore a condition on the card itself. That's what I consider choosing the bits you like.

#122 perniciousducks

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 12:37 AM

 

 

 

 

This card says to choose an enemy at range 1-2 and if within their fire arc you may acquire a target lock, then perform a free boost action.

 

My question is do you have to be able to do the first part of that to be able to do the second?

 

I'd assume yes otherwise we have just been given a cheaper engine upgrade for X & Ys but at the cost of the astro slot.

 

I would say no.  It says you MAY acquire a target lock, then perform the boost.  May implies a choice.  

 

Do i?  No, ok i can boost now.

Do i? Yep, (places TL token next to ship).  Ok, i can boost now.

 

Maybe it will change in the future, but i believe all ships that have an astromech slot have the ability to TL.

 

i have to disagree with this response.

the card says if at range 1-2 and if in their fire arc you may target lock, so you do have a choice to target lock or not, but the wording says then perform a free boost action, to me this is conditional of taking the lock then boost.

 

Actually, like KineticOperator stated, it ends the sentence after the first part. The next sentence says "Then, you may perform a free boost action."

 

It gives a choice to the first part and to the second part, partitioned by a period and the word Then, signifying one does not effect whether you can do the other.

 

Let's try reasoning it out this way since some of you seem to think it's an If/Then statement: Let's take Then out of the wording and see what happens to it.

 

"ACTION: Choose an enemy ship at Range 1-2. If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship. You may perform a free boost action."

 

Okay, so now what we have here is a target lock if conditions are met and a boost, both are optional but it doesn't say when to do each one. Now it would fall under the simultaneous effects rule and I get to choose when each effect happens. I don't think that FFG would have written this the way they did if they intended you to choose when each effect happened.

 

I'm fairly certain that the word "Then" is included to specify the timing of the effects. I'm also pretty confident that choosing to use or skip the first effect does not mean you can or cannot use the second effect.

 

They are two effects, separated only to specify which happens first.

 

 

By this logic, any ship with Push the Limit will gain a stress token after an action, independent of taking a second action.

 

The "Then" is not only separated by a period from the previous statement, it's in an entirely new paragraph. By the above logic, this would imply that after an action is performed you may perform a second action.  Regardless of the second action being taken, you then receive a stress token.

 

I get that it's a little vague, but lets apply a bit of common sense here.


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#123 Buhallin

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:32 AM


By this logic, any ship with Push the Limit will gain a stress token after an action, independent of taking a second action.

 

The "Then" is not only separated by a period from the previous statement, it's in an entirely new paragraph. By the above logic, this would imply that after an action is performed you may perform a second action.  Regardless of the second action being taken, you then receive a stress token.

 

I get that it's a little vague, but lets apply a bit of common sense here.

 

Thanks for finding this - it's a good reinforcement to what I've been trying to say.

 

"Then" is a conditional in X-wing.  It's timing, but not JUST timing - it says that if you don't complete what came before, you don't do that part.

 

All the conditional logic (which I've admittedly skimmed, because we have no idea if that's how we should read the groupings) seem to be ignoring this.  IMHO, this is the core of the question - if you can't do B, can you "then" do C?  We have FAQ an example that you can't (Expert Handling), and at least one very obvious no with Push the Limit.

 

Barring some pretty good evidence, I don't see any reason to think R7-T1 shouldn't follow the evidence we have, meaning you can't do C (boost) unless you successfully do B (which means being in arc).



#124 dvor

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:23 AM

All the conditional logic (which I've admittedly skimmed, because we have no idea if that's how we should read the groupings) seem to be ignoring this.  IMHO, this is the core of the question - if you can't do B, can you "then" do C?

The logic does not ignore it. One point of disagreement is what exactly constitutes doing one part if that part is optional (may).


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#125 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:58 AM

 


By this logic, any ship with Push the Limit will gain a stress token after an action, independent of taking a second action.

 

The "Then" is not only separated by a period from the previous statement, it's in an entirely new paragraph. By the above logic, this would imply that after an action is performed you may perform a second action.  Regardless of the second action being taken, you then receive a stress token.

 

I get that it's a little vague, but lets apply a bit of common sense here.

 

Thanks for finding this - it's a good reinforcement to what I've been trying to say.

 

"Then" is a conditional in X-wing.  It's timing, but not JUST timing - it says that if you don't complete what came before, you don't do that part.

 

All the conditional logic (which I've admittedly skimmed, because we have no idea if that's how we should read the groupings) seem to be ignoring this.  IMHO, this is the core of the question - if you can't do B, can you "then" do C?  We have FAQ an example that you can't (Expert Handling), and at least one very obvious no with Push the Limit.

 

Barring some pretty good evidence, I don't see any reason to think R7-T1 shouldn't follow the evidence we have, meaning you can't do C (boost) unless you successfully do B (which means being in arc).

 

 

Except for the little fact that in 'Push the limit', performing the second action is part of the first sentece, the prerequisite.

 

Thus, if you don't perform the second action, the prerequisite is not met, the card fails in its entirety, and you never get to 'Then' clause.



#126 Buhallin

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:32 AM


Except for the little fact that in 'Push the limit', performing the second action is part of the first sentece, the prerequisite.

 

So we're back to the first sentence is the only mandatory one?  I thought that bit of creative invention was abandoned four pages ago.  There's absolutely nothing in any rule or example that suggests that the first sentence of an ability should be treated differently than any other.

 

Ah well.  This is pretty clearly into the land of "Going to read it how I want it to play until FFG says something" so might as well move along.



#127 perniciousducks

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 12:08 PM

By this logic, any ship with Push the Limit will gain a stress token after an action, independent of taking a second action.
 
The "Then" is not only separated by a period from the previous statement, it's in an entirely new paragraph. By the above logic, this would imply that after an action is performed you may perform a second action.  Regardless of the second action being taken, you then receive a stress token.
 
I get that it's a little vague, but lets apply a bit of common sense here.

Thanks for finding this - it's a good reinforcement to what I've been trying to say.
 
"Then" is a conditional in X-wing.  It's timing, but not JUST timing - it says that if you don't complete what came before, you don't do that part.
 
All the conditional logic (which I've admittedly skimmed, because we have no idea if that's how we should read the groupings) seem to be ignoring this.  IMHO, this is the core of the question - if you can't do B, can you "then" do C?  We have FAQ an example that you can't (Expert Handling), and at least one very obvious no with Push the Limit.
 
Barring some pretty good evidence, I don't see any reason to think R7-T1 shouldn't follow the evidence we have, meaning you can't do C (boost) unless you successfully do B (which means being in arc).
 
Except for the little fact that in 'Push the limit', performing the second action is part of the first sentece, the prerequisite.
 
Thus, if you don't perform the second action, the prerequisite is not met, the card fails in its entirety, and you never get to 'Then' clause.

No, the only required part of push the limit occurring is that, once per round, an action is taken. That activates the card, then by all of the logic in this thread you may optionally take a second action. That's it, end of sentence and paragraph. "Then" is a timing word meaning that you get a stress token (note: it's required, not optional) after the second action is taken or not. Therefor, by having push the limit, any time an action is taken you get a stress token regardless of a second action.
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#128 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:45 PM

 

 

 

By this logic, any ship with Push the Limit will gain a stress token after an action, independent of taking a second action.
 
The "Then" is not only separated by a period from the previous statement, it's in an entirely new paragraph. By the above logic, this would imply that after an action is performed you may perform a second action.  Regardless of the second action being taken, you then receive a stress token.
 
I get that it's a little vague, but lets apply a bit of common sense here.

Thanks for finding this - it's a good reinforcement to what I've been trying to say.
 
"Then" is a conditional in X-wing.  It's timing, but not JUST timing - it says that if you don't complete what came before, you don't do that part.
 
All the conditional logic (which I've admittedly skimmed, because we have no idea if that's how we should read the groupings) seem to be ignoring this.  IMHO, this is the core of the question - if you can't do B, can you "then" do C?  We have FAQ an example that you can't (Expert Handling), and at least one very obvious no with Push the Limit.
 
Barring some pretty good evidence, I don't see any reason to think R7-T1 shouldn't follow the evidence we have, meaning you can't do C (boost) unless you successfully do B (which means being in arc).
 
Except for the little fact that in 'Push the limit', performing the second action is part of the first sentece, the prerequisite.
 
Thus, if you don't perform the second action, the prerequisite is not met, the card fails in its entirety, and you never get to 'Then' clause.

No, the only required part of push the limit occurring is that, once per round, an action is taken. That activates the card, then by all of the logic in this thread you may optionally take a second action. That's it, end of sentence and paragraph. "Then" is a timing word meaning that you get a stress token (note: it's required, not optional) after the second action is taken or not. Therefor, by having push the limit, any time an action is taken you get a stress token regardless of a second action.

 

 

Ehm no.

 

The logic (my logic at least) is that choosing a ship at range 1-2 is a prerequisite. And being inside its firing arc is another prerequisite. The first operates as activation for the whole card, the second only for acquiring a target lock. And that is so because they are in different sentences and refer to different things. Furthermore, in order to check for firing arc, you already had to choose a ship first, thus, activating the card with your action. Therefore they are 2 different steps.

 

If the activation phrase were: "Choose one enemy ship that has you in its firing arc" then, indeed, both situations would be the prerequisite for the whole card, including the boost. It would be only one step, and you could only activate the card if both situations were met simultaneously.

 

But since the activation phrase is "Choose one enemy ship at range 1-2", and in order to do just that you must spend your action, the action of choosing a ship must be valid by itself and has to activate something... Otherwise the card is bad redacted , and the first sentence would be meaningless if you are not on someone's firing arc. In other words: You could choose someone at range 1-2, (Thus validly activating the card) only to end wasting your action if you were not in it's firing arc.

 

Since I give some credit to FFG's developers, I can positively conclude that choosing an enemy ship must be enough to activate the card and gain some benefit from it, while being in the firing arc is a prerequisite only for acquiring an extra target lock. Then (after checking for firing arc and target lock [YES-NO]) you may boost.

 

Because the alternative some of you are so fiercely defending could be our first "Action: Oh sorry, you waste your action" card in the whole game.

 

And, again in the case, of push the limit... The prerequisite of activation includes taking the second action. And it does so because the conditional is contained in the very own activation sentence. If you do not take that second action, the conditional 'may' which is an integral element of the prerequisite phrase doesn't happens, the prerequisite fails, and thus, you can't apply the rest of the card's text, (nor any part of it by extension)... Including the stress gaining part.



#129 perniciousducks

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:17 PM

Push the Limit:

 

Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar.
 
Then receive 1 stress token.
 
 
R7-T1:
 
Action: Choose an enemy ship at Range 1-2. If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship.  Then, you may perform a boost action.
 
 
 
Let's examine the activation of each of these:
 
R7-T1: Action
 
This one is easy, it's when you decide to perform this specific action.  As with any other action, if you cannot perform it successfully, you then back out an choose a different action. See: barrel roll or boost actions.
 
 
Push the limit: Once per round, after you perform an action, you may blah blah
 
This is a little more complex, it fires immediately after you perform your first action.  The may is optional, but it doesn't change the fact that the card is now activated.
 
 
 
Now in the world we all live in, the "Then" is tied to the "may" being chosen in the affirmative.  If not, then any ship with Push the Limit will automatically be awarded a stress token for having the audacity to perform an action of any kind.  I mean, in the case of Push the Limit, the "Then" Is not only in a different sentence, it's in an entirely separate paragraph. If we're getting to the point where we depend on specific punctuation (ie. a comma or period) to determine if one word applies to a previous statement, it is very safe to assume that the "Then" in Push the Limit has no prerequisite whatsoever, other than the card being activated, which I've already discussed.

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#130 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:02 PM

Ok, one last try.

Let's you assume you are right, and that the card works as you say, in that case, let me 'complete' card's text for you:

Action: Choose one enemy ship at range 1-2.
If you are in that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship. Then, you may perform a free boost.
If you are not in that ship's firing arc, you can't do nothing else, and you just wasted your action.

If choosing a ship not pointing at us makes the action automatically fail... Why are we given the option to choose it in first place?
Is it some sort of hidden IQ test from FFG? "Ha ha, let's see how many idiots choose ships not firing at them and lose their action". "Hey! Look! Another one fell for it... LOOOL!!!!"

At this point, there's really nothing more I can argue or add to point of the debate, so this concludes my contribution to the discussion.

#131 Buhallin

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:15 PM

It's worth noting that in another similar "it can fail" situation (Expert Handling) the FAQ explicitly allows you to measure the risky part (the barrel roll) before taking the action.  I'd expect the same to apply here, even if such reasonableness on FFG's part means a weaker argument.

 

I'm quickly coming to agree with the duck on this one, on all parts.  The optional portion of the ability counting for moving forward was the only thing I was on the fence over, and PtL does provide us with a good example of a "Then" following an optional action.

 

Usual caveats about FFG's questionable wordings and interpretation of their own rules, but that's a close enough example for me to take it until the inevitable clarification.


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#132 perniciousducks

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:23 PM

Ok, one last try.
Let's you assume you are right, and that the card works as you say, in that case, let me 'complete' card's text for you:
Action: Choose one enemy ship at range 1-2.
If you are in that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship. Then, you may perform a free boost.
If you are not in that ship's firing arc, you can't do nothing else, and you just wasted your action.
If choosing a ship not pointing at us makes the action automatically fail... Why are we given the option to choose it in first place?
Is it some sort of hidden IQ test from FFG? "Ha ha, let's see how many idiots choose ships not firing at them and lose their action". "Hey! Look! Another one fell for it... LOOOL!!!!"
At this point, there's really nothing more I can argue or add to point of the debate, so this concludes my contribution to the discussion.


There are ample examples of actions not being completeable. Target lock, barrel roll, boost, daredevil, etc. the same thing always occurs, you back out of the action and perform a different one.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up.
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#133 TheWanderingMiller

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 04:37 PM

Maybe this will help.

 

 

 

http://s28.postimg.o...1_Flowchart.png

 

 

R7_T1_Flowchart.png


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