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#21 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:00 PM

If you activate R7-T1:

 

Choose an enemy ship at range 1-2. (Note that you can choose ANY enemy, even if you are not on its fire arc).

 

If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a free a target lock on that ship. (inside arc is a requisite for the TL, otherwise, taking the TL is optional).

 

Then, you may perform a free boost action. (From the wording it seems no requisites other than choosing a ship a range 1-2).

 

So it looks like a boost action whenever you have ship at range 1-2 from you. And if you are inside its fire arc, you may take a free target lock on it.


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#22 VanorDM

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:04 PM

Same idea as with FCS.


Yeah that's what I was thinking.

The more I think the more I'm convinced that the TL isn't optional, you have to TL to get the boost action.

Otherwise it would be cleaner to word it like this.

"You may preform a TL. You may preform a boost action." The Then ties the 2nd action to the first action. But it is possible that the Then is a reference to timing and not requirement.

Edited by VanorDM, 18 February 2014 - 12:05 PM.

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#23 dvor

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:05 PM

 

And the next may creates an option for the next part of the action.


So the boost may be optional, but I'm still not sure the TL is. Given the way the two lines are written, it seems like a if/then statement.

So you may preform a TL action, and if you do, then you may preform a boost action.

If I understand you correctly we agree about the meaning of "may" but we disagree about the meaning of "then".

 

 

 IMO the word Then implies you can only do the 2nd part if you do the 1st part.

I can even agree to that statement. However i think that "doing the 1st part" means either realizing (or measuring) that you cannot TL or deciding whether or not you want to.

 

I do not think that meeting the firing arc condition is a requirement for boost.

 

Best we can do is hope for a ruling from FFG.

 

 

Edit:

 

But it is possible that the Then is a reference to timing and not requirement.

That is possible. It that case it says you have to acquire the TL from your position before the boost, not after.


Edited by dvor, 18 February 2014 - 12:16 PM.

X-wing is played over a series of game rounds. Turn is a type of maneuver.


#24 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:11 PM

 

Same idea as with FCS.


Yeah that's what I was thinking.

The more I think the more I'm convinced that the TL isn't optional, you have to TL to get the boost action.

Otherwise it would be cleaner to word it like this.

"You may preform a TL. You may preform a boost action." The Then ties the 2nd action to the first action. But it is possible that the Then is a reference to timing and not requirement.

 

 

My problem with this is that, according to that interpretation, the first sentence is pointless.

 

"Choose an enemy ship at range 1-2."

 

If you can only boost if you target lock, and you can only TL if you are inside enemy's firing arc... Then you can only choose a target effectively when inside his firing arc... Otherwise, the ability doesn't work at all.

 

But the first sentence is clear in that you can choose ANY enemy ship at range 1-2, regardless of being in its firing arc or not.


Edited by Jehan Menasis, 18 February 2014 - 12:12 PM.


#25 Englishpete

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:12 PM

As a rule of thumb in these cases I tend to play the most restrictive interpretation until FFG tell me otherwise.

 

In this case.

 

1. Check Range 1-2 limitation of ship.

 

2. If I meet criteria 1, am I inside the ship at Range 1-2's firing arc.

 

3. If I meet criteria 1 and 2 I may TL

 

4. If I met criteria 1 and 2 and I took the TL in stage 3, I may perform a free boost action.


Edited by Englishpete, 18 February 2014 - 12:18 PM.

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#26 dbmeboy

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:23 PM

As long as we're all prepared for FFG to come up with a completely different way to interpret the card that none of us thought of whenever they get around to releasing the FAQ for it.
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#27 GroggyGolem

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:23 PM

I believe the use of "then" is just stating the timing of effects.

 

Push_The_Limit.png

 

If you take PtL for instance, the last sentence states "Then receive 1 stress token." If you received one prior to your second action or before the first, you wouldn't be able to take actions anymore because of the stress token. "Then" in this instance, is being used to clarify when exactly that part of the resolution happens.

 

 

Now let's look at Daredevil.

 

Daredevil.png

 

In this instance, once again, "Then" is used to state when an effect of the action occurs. You execute a red speed 1 turn (right or left). Then, you resolve the second part of the action.

 

So the use of "Then" has so far been used in the same exact way more than once with this game. That is, to note timing within resolving an action. One can reasonably think that it will be used the same way going forwards as well.

 

 

*Edited to correctly state Daredevil*

 

So the errata'd Daredevil says "Action: Execute a white speed 1 (left or right) turn maneuver. Then receive 1 stress token."

 

The use of "Then" is the same as before the errata.

 

Thanks for pointing out I was using the wrong version of Daredevil, Khyros!


Edited by GroggyGolem, 18 February 2014 - 12:37 PM.

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#28 dvor

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:26 PM

... FFG to come up with a completely different way to interpret the card that none of us thought of ...

Does anyone expect anything else?


X-wing is played over a series of game rounds. Turn is a type of maneuver.


#29 Crabbok

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

So let me ask a question. The whole card takes up your action, so why wouldn't you take the Target Lock and then decide to boost or not?

 

There is no down side to taking the lock at all.

The downside could be that you already have a target lock on another ship and don't want to lose it.  

 

  Example:  I have a Target Lock on Howlrunner and she is right next to 3 TIE/lns.  However, all 4 of them are out of my range, just barely - (I aquired the target lock but dind't want to fire my assault missile until the following turn because I wanted both TL AND Focus).  So let's assume that there is a Bounty Hunter within my firing arc - Assume I'be been passed a focus from Kyle Katarn and now want to shoot my missile at howlrunner - I could use the action on the BH - opt not change my Target Lock - but boost into range 3 of Howlrunner, fire my assault missile, and have a celebratory margarita!


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#30 Khyros

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:29 PM

^  FYI, that's the old Daredevil.  It has been errata'd... Not like it changes your point.

 

As far as why would you not want to TL - I can think of several reasons...

1 - you already have one on someone else that you don't want to lose. 

2 - you already have a TL on the person in R1-2, as such, you CANNOT take a TL on him.

3 - Some sort of interaction with Kagi

4 - Some sort of interaction with Biggs

 

What I wonder is if Kagi is at R3, and another qualifying ship is at R2... Can you lock that ship and then boost, or since Kagi is a proper target, you cannot lock the eligible ship, as such, you cannot use R7-T1?


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#31 Effenhoog

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:32 PM

After considering it further, this card definitely needs some clarification

 

So let me ask a question. The whole card takes up your action, so why wouldn't you take the Target Lock and then decide to boost or not?

 

There is no down side to taking the lock at all.

 

Consider this scenario: Your E-wing with this droid is tailing a TIE Interceptor at range 2, which you have a target lock on already from a previous turn.  A TIE bomber is tailing you at range 1-2.

 

So the TIE bomber has you in its arc, satisfying the conditions of the card.  however, the droid only allows you to preform a target lock on the ship that triggered it, so here it would be the bomber.  However, you already have a target lock on the interceptor, and if you could choose not to target lock the bomber and still get the boost action, you would be able to boost into range one of the interceptor AND still have the target lock

 

edit: oops I guess someone already covered it


Edited by Effenhoog, 18 February 2014 - 12:33 PM.


#32 GroggyGolem

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:32 PM

^  FYI, that's the old Daredevil.  It has been errata'd... Not like it changes your point.

Ah, my bad. Grabbed the pic and didn't think to make sure of that.


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#33 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:33 PM

I believe the use of "then" is just stating the timing of effects.

 

Push_The_Limit.png

 

If you take PtL for instance, the last sentence states "Then receive 1 stress token." If you received one prior to your second action or before the first, you wouldn't be able to take actions anymore because of the stress token. "Then" in this instance, is being used to clarify when exactly that part of the resolution happens.

 

 

Now let's look at Daredevil.

 

Daredevil.png

 

In this instance, once again, "Then" is used to state when an effect of the action occurs. You execute a red speed 1 turn (right or left). Then, you resolve the second part of the action.

 

So the use of "Then" has so far been used in the same exact way more than once with this game. That is, to note timing within resolving an action. One can reasonably think that it will be used the same way going forwards as well.

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#34 dvor

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:34 PM

What I wonder is if Kagi is at R3, and another qualifying ship is at R2... Can you lock that ship and then boost, or since Kagi is a proper target, you cannot lock the eligible ship, as such, you cannot use R7-T1?

I'd treat that like Kagi and FCS. FCS allows you to TL that particular ship only. Kagi does not interfere. R7-T1 allows you to TL that particular ship only. Kagi does not interfere.

 

Even with Kagi inside range 1 or 2 and you inside his firing arc you can choose a different ship. And then you can TL that ship only. I think.


Edited by dvor, 18 February 2014 - 12:37 PM.

X-wing is played over a series of game rounds. Turn is a type of maneuver.


#35 VanorDM

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:07 PM

The use of "Then" is the same as before the errata.


I'm still inclined to treat this as a if/then type statement. But it's completely possible it's not, and then is a timing issue.

The question is, does the timing matter?

I think it does, because you can only TL something if you're in it's fire arc. So if order doesn't matter I could pick a ship from range 1-2, boost into it's fire arc and then get a TL. But if I have do it in order, I can only TL if I'm already in the ships fire arc.

Issue there IMO, is why would anyone ever want to boost into the fire arc of another ship? The way the card works now, is you use it to TL then boost out of the arc if possible, or at least into a better location, perhaps closer or something. I suppose both ships could be out of each others arc and the only way to get it in yours is to boost.

#36 KineticOperator

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:45 PM

I really don't understand why so many feel that the boost is part of an IF/THEN statement.  It is missing a critical component of that set up, namely the IF conditional.

 

"Then", all by itself, is a statement of timing.  There are no instances in this game or in general usage where "then" in isolation means anything else.  In the case of R7-T1, you already have an IF/THEN statement (though "then" is implied), which concludes with a period.  In order for it to say what others are thinking, it would ideally have zero punctuation between the linked portions (acquiring a target lock and boosting).  For example, "If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship and may perform a free boost action."  At most, you might separate the related statements by a comma (though doing so would not quite be ideal, it wouldn't necessarily alter the meaning of the sentence). For example, "If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship, and may perform a free boost action."  Regardless of punctuation, you need a link between the two statements if they are indeed linked statements.  A period ends a statement, it does not link unrelated statements.

 

Of course, there is always the possibility that this was only poor grammar on the part of FFG but until we have a definitive statement from them letting us know that this is the case I think we should stick to what is written.

 

JMO, YMMV


Edited by KineticOperator, 18 February 2014 - 02:49 PM.

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#37 GroggyGolem

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:52 PM

I really don't understand why so many feel that the boost is part of an IF/THEN statement.  It is missing a critical component of that set up, namely the IF conditional.

 

"Then", all by itself, is a statement of timing.  There are no instances in this game or in general usage where "then" in isolation means anything else.  In the case of R7-T1, you already have an IF/THEN statement (though "then" is implied), which concludes with a period.  In order for it to say what others are thinking, it would ideally have zero punctuation between the linked portions (acquiring a target lock and boosting).  For example, "If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship and may perform a free boost action."  At most, you might separate the related statements by a comma (though doing so would not quite be ideal, it wouldn't necessarily alter the meaning of the sentence). For example, "If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship, and may perform a free boost action."  Regardless of punctuation, you need a link between the two statements if they are indeed linked statements.  A period ends a statement, it does not link unrelated statements.

 

Of course, there is always the possibility that this was only poor grammar on the part of FFG but until we have a definitive statement from them letting us know that this is the case I think we should stick to what is written.

 

JMO, YMMV

I agree. What is written is pretty clearly written IMO, considering the previous evidence of the word "Then" and it's singular use within the rules of this game.


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#38 KILODEN

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

 

This card says to choose an enemy at range 1-2 and if within their fire arc you may acquire a target lock, then perform a free boost action.

 

My question is do you have to be able to do the first part of that to be able to do the second?

 

I'd assume yes otherwise we have just been given a cheaper engine upgrade for X & Ys but at the cost of the astro slot.

 

I would say no.  It says you MAY acquire a target lock, then perform the boost.  May implies a choice.  

 

Do i?  No, ok i can boost now.

Do i? Yep, (places TL token next to ship).  Ok, i can boost now.

 

Maybe it will change in the future, but i believe all ships that have an astromech slot have the ability to TL.

 

i have to disagree with this response.

the card says if at range 1-2 and if in their fire arc you may target lock, so you do have a choice to target lock or not, but the wording says then perform a free boost action, to me this is conditional of taking the lock then boost.


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#39 GroggyGolem

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:20 PM

 

 

 

This card says to choose an enemy at range 1-2 and if within their fire arc you may acquire a target lock, then perform a free boost action.

 

My question is do you have to be able to do the first part of that to be able to do the second?

 

I'd assume yes otherwise we have just been given a cheaper engine upgrade for X & Ys but at the cost of the astro slot.

 

I would say no.  It says you MAY acquire a target lock, then perform the boost.  May implies a choice.  

 

Do i?  No, ok i can boost now.

Do i? Yep, (places TL token next to ship).  Ok, i can boost now.

 

Maybe it will change in the future, but i believe all ships that have an astromech slot have the ability to TL.

 

i have to disagree with this response.

the card says if at range 1-2 and if in their fire arc you may target lock, so you do have a choice to target lock or not, but the wording says then perform a free boost action, to me this is conditional of taking the lock then boost.

 

Actually, like KineticOperator stated, it ends the sentence after the first part. The next sentence says "Then, you may perform a free boost action."

 

It gives a choice to the first part and to the second part, partitioned by a period and the word Then, signifying one does not effect whether you can do the other.

 

Let's try reasoning it out this way since some of you seem to think it's an If/Then statement: Let's take Then out of the wording and see what happens to it.

 

"ACTION: Choose an enemy ship at Range 1-2. If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship. You may perform a free boost action."

 

Okay, so now what we have here is a target lock if conditions are met and a boost, both are optional but it doesn't say when to do each one. Now it would fall under the simultaneous effects rule and I get to choose when each effect happens. I don't think that FFG would have written this the way they did if they intended you to choose when each effect happened.

 

I'm fairly certain that the word "Then" is included to specify the timing of the effects. I'm also pretty confident that choosing to use or skip the first effect does not mean you can or cannot use the second effect.

 

They are two effects, separated only to specify which happens first.


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#40 VanorDM

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:25 PM

They are two effects, separated only to specify which happens first.


I'm coming around to that line of thinking to be honest. I was playing around with it on Vassal, and I found a couple cases in which order matters. If you could pick the order the ability is a bit more powerful then if you can't.

For example lets say you're going head to head, and are at range 3. If you do it in order, you can't get a TL, because you're not in range 1 or 2. But if you could boost first, you'd get to range 2, and then TL.




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