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One Response / Per Trigger / Per Card


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#1 HastAttack

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:32 AM

I'm slowly getting to grips with this rule

 

ktom : "This boils down to not being able to use the same Response effect on the same card (i.e., piece of cardboard) twice for the same Response opportunity"

 

I got thrown by some cards appear to allow multiple responses - were you pay a cost (Iron Cliffs) - but it turns out there is still the restriction of one response per trigger, per card

 

This is one of those rules that appear to be quite simple and I do wonder how I got confused in the first place ... accepting the high quality rules book and the magnificant Sansa Stark example!!!

 

Maybe another reason is due to what one learns using just the core set - I was looking at some cards yesterday and Lannisport struck me as odd

 

Response: After you win an Intrigue challenge, pay 1 gold to claim 1 power for your House (limit once per challenge).
 

Why does this say "limit once per challenge"?

Isn't the winning of the challenge the single trigger which according to the rules only allows one response per card? (Lannisport is not unique)

 

I think that when you start playing and read text like this, it implies that when the text (limit) is not there that the limit does not apply

 

Is there an element that some of the core pack cards are over wordy to give beginner that extra bit of "help"? - (another instance being the limited response being fixed yet having the wording re the limit of once per round)

 



#2 Underworld40k

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:10 AM

It is just FFG's consistently inconsistent template structure. Same reason that some of the reducing cards have cannot be saved in the text when we know that you cant cancel the cost without canceling the effect.


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#3 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:02 AM

There's some history here, too. Many of the cards in the Core Set are reprints from a time when some of the timing rules were very different. The current timing structure evolved over the first year or two of the game before being set down as they are now. At one time, the "one response per trigger" rule didn't exist in the FAQ, so the text wasn't redundant on this card. When it was reprinted for the Core Set, it wasn't updated to remove redundancy. Another example of this is the "limit 1 per plot deck" on Valar Morghulis." ALL plots are "limit 1 per plot deck" now, but when Valar was first printed, you could have two of any plot in a plot deck.

I'm not sure the redundancy of "cannot be saved" on a cost is exactly the same thing, though. It really is not as "obvious," and there is no clear rule specifically saying "you can't save a card killed/discarded for cost" the way there is for other rules (like responses per trigger and plot deck construction). It's a derivation and implication of other timing rules. In fact, I remember explaining it - and getting push back - from many of the folks that now take it for granted and explain it to others.

#4 HastAttack

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:22 AM

thanks

 

The "cannot be saved" issue came up in another recent question -  I was wondering whether I could discard a warship to trigger Euron's Favour and then use Gormond Goodbrother to save that location from being discarded

 

The explanation was to do with timing - so the need to state "cannot be saved" is irrelevent as there is no framework action anyway

 

But when someone starts playimg and sees cards saying "cannot be saved" it makes it difficult to appreciate that even if the card does not say that, it still cannot be saved

 

It's discarding old rules learnt incorrectly which I find hardest to do :(

 

 

Response: Kneel Gormond Goodbrother to save a location you control from being discarded from play.

 

 

 

Any Phase: Discard a Warship location from play or from your hand to give attached character +4 STR and deadly until the end of the phase.



#5 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:48 AM

It's probably important to note that even FFG hadn't really put together the "you cannot save from being killed/discarded for cost, regardless" timing in the earliest days, so when they were putting "cannot be saved" on costs, they honestly thought they were being helpful.

 

Anyone saying the implication of "too late to save a character killed/discarded for cost" was always understood and intended is engaging in a little revisionist history - kind of like George Lucas saying the Skywalker family tree was always intended is disingenuous, given that character biographies of Luke and Leia released with the first movie had their ages listed as 20 and 18 respectively. ("What I told you was true...from a certain point of view." Bah!)


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#6 -Istaril

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

("What I told you was true...from a certain point of view." Bah!)

 

Ktom... my admiration for you never ceases. I think this may be my favourite rules post ever. *teary-eyed*



#7 Mitya

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:22 AM

ktom : "This boils down to not being able to use the same Response effect on the same card (i.e., piece of cardboard) twice for the same Response opportunity"

the follow-up question -- May the different player try to use the same Response effect on the same card for the same "Response opportunity"?



#8 ktom

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:08 AM

the follow-up question -- May the different player try to use the same Response effect on the same card for the same "Response opportunity"?


Can you give an example of what you're thinking of here? Typically, only the controller of a card can use the effect/response on a card, so I'm having trouble thinking of a situation where this would ever come up.

#9 Ratatoskr

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:32 AM

 

the follow-up question -- May the different player try to use the same Response effect on the same card for the same "Response opportunity"?


Can you give an example of what you're thinking of here? Typically, only the controller of a card can use the effect/response on a card, so I'm having trouble thinking of a situation where this would ever come up.

 

Rhaegar Targaryen is killed, his Response is triggered but cancelled with He Calls It Thinking. Can a different player trigger the Response again?



#10 Ratatoskr

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:36 AM

Another Example:

I win a POW challenge by 4 STR. A character is killed for Deadly. The losing opponent triggers Ghost of Winterfell, draws a card. I play Seductive Promise, take control of GoW. Can I trigger it again?



#11 Ratatoskr

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:40 AM

To answer those questions, since the FAQ says "If a response or passive ability is triggered, the effect can only occur once per trigger", I'd say that it doesn't matter which player triggers the response. It still can be triggered only once.

 

Note that even though that paragraph is worded as it is, the limitation is actually on the initiation of the response, not the resolution. So if a response is cancelled, you cannot just retrigger it, even though the "effects" of the Response have not "occured".


Edited by Ratatoskr, 28 February 2014 - 07:42 AM.


#12 Mitya

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:56 AM

the change of control was involved. I'll describe the situation below, sorry in advance for my English.

I was playng Baratheon deck, my opponent was playng Targaryen.

I'm the First Player. I'm done with marshalling and I has in play Shadow version of Jaime, and Shadow Killer in the Shadows area. I also have 2 gold left in my gool pool. it's my ooponent turn to marshall and he playes Ygritte and steals my Jaime through her response. At the end of marshalling phase he has more card at his command. And we move to the challenge phase.

Challenge phase.
I decide to bring Shadow Kiler from Shadows. But my opponent has the opportunity to response first, so he uses Jaime to draw a card. Then it's my response -- I kill Ygritte. Ygritte becomes moribund: dead pile. The control of Jaime goes back to me. My opponent passes on responses. It's again my opportunity to response. May I trigger Jaime in this situation?

About Ygritte -- one of my metamates sent the questiton to FFG about when exactly control switch back.
 

 

Thanks for the quick answer, but my question was: can Beric change control while being moribund:dead because of Ygritte's "take contol" effect expiration due to her becoming moribund:dead too? Or does Ygritte's effect end only when she enters dead pile physically?
 
Beric reverts back to it's owner's control as a passive.

 



#13 Bomb

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 09:59 AM

I thought it was ruled somewhere that the limitations were on a per player basis since you read the cards to yourself and apply those limits against yourself.

 

I don't know if there is a good way to look this up since the terms on such a topic are spread out all over the forums.



#14 ktom

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 01:43 PM

To answer those questions, since the FAQ says "If a response or passive ability is triggered, the effect can only occur once per trigger", I'd say that it doesn't matter which player triggers the response. It still can be triggered only once.

 

I thought it was ruled somewhere that the limitations were on a per player basis since you read the cards to yourself and apply those limits against yourself.

 

I don't know if there is a good way to look this up since the terms on such a topic are spread out all over the forums.

 

Don't need to look it up on the forums. It was added to the FAQ:

 

FAQ 4.22:

Limits always apply only to the player who is using the ability. For instance, if one player plays a copy of an event card with the text "limit one per phase," that player's opponent may also play his or her own copy of that event during that phase.

 
So yes, a different player could trigger Rhaegar or Ghost of Winterfell, assuming the control change and that other play restrictions are met.

 

Challenge phase.

I decide to bring Shadow Kiler from Shadows. But my opponent has the opportunity to response first, so he uses Jaime to draw a card. Then it's my response -- I kill Ygritte. Ygritte becomes moribund: dead pile. The control of Jaime goes back to me. My opponent passes on responses. It's again my opportunity to response. May I trigger Jaime in this situation?

 

If it has been ruled that the control changes back as a passive, then yes, you get control back during the Response window and you can trigger Jaime again because, as quoted above, limits are "per player."


Edited by ktom, 28 February 2014 - 01:45 PM.


#15 Ratatoskr

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 06:11 PM

Don't need to look it up on the forums. It was added to the FAQ

Thank you. Am a bit embarassed to have missed that. ;)

#16 Mitya

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 03:17 AM

Thanks for your answers.

I'll ask FFG about Ygritte, just to be sure.






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