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Custom Templates Really Wrong?


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#61 Duke of Advil

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:55 AM

I just thought of something....
there is an online computer X-Wing game that you can play.....Vastel, or something like that. Is it possible that they have the correct arcs and such so the mechanics of the game work properly?

EMPIRE SHIPS [TIE Fighters(5)] [TIE Interceptor(1)] [Firespray-31(1)] [TIE Advanced(1)] [TIE Bomber(1)]

REBEL SHIPS [X-Wing(3)] [B-Wing(1)] [A-Wing(1)] [YT-1300(1)] [Y-Wing(1)] [HWK-290(1)]

Vaders Redemption


#62 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:17 PM

I just thought of something....
there is an online computer X-Wing game that you can play.....Vastel, or something like that. Is it possible that they have the correct arcs and such so the mechanics of the game work properly?

It's Vassal, and a couple of X-wing players have been very careful to make sure that the templates and arcs are as accurate as they can be, given variation in the actual rulers, templates, and bases.



#63 librarian101

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:36 PM

I have acrylics from Warsanal and Litko and both are right on.  Accuracy is important, but any tool, and that is what these are, does have a tolerance for error.  Is that tolerance 1mm only FFG knows at this time.  I would guess that in the long run we have more user error in placement that would probably put us outside that tolerance.  In reality if you don't feel comfortable with them don't use them, but if you can compare them before the game and they are accurate within  tolerance and really 1mm is really good, use them and don't worry.  I have seen much worse in other mini games.



#64 AlexW

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:26 PM

I have acrylics from Warsanal and Litko and both are right on.  Accuracy is important, but any tool, and that is what these are, does have a tolerance for error.  Is that tolerance 1mm only FFG knows at this time.  I would guess that in the long run we have more user error in placement that would probably put us outside that tolerance.  In reality if you don't feel comfortable with them don't use them, but if you can compare them before the game and they are accurate within  tolerance and really 1mm is really good, use them and don't worry.  I have seen much worse in other mini games.

 The latter part is easy to say, and I agree, but we did pay good money for them.   It's too soon to tell if it will matter in some ways, but if it is enough of a difference (that official tourneys consider them invalid)  and it is their responsibility, I think TC should probably consider redoing the one-turns and send them out to those of us that bought from them.  If it's not a big deal, then no worries.



#65 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

So I got a longer answer from Robert at TC, who seems like a really nice guy. It didn't include measurements, but I think I understand how it works out now:

 

"In order to get our dimensions, we started with 5 different cardboard sets, two from the original printing, and three from at least the second printing, if not second and third. From there, we looked at the exact dimensions of the acrylic template sets given out by FFG at Nationals. Given the variance in the former, the latter is where we sourced most of our original numbers. Then we took those numbers and compared them to the cardboard averages, and determined what the dimensions were intended to be. 


The range ruler is pretty straightforward, and its intended dimensions are obvious. 

For the turns, we knew the inner radius of the acrylic sets from Nationals, and also the width of each template, and could therefore plot a “perfect” curve. This is what we did to create the first draft of our templates. They’re as mathematically correct as possible, assuming that the Nationals sets are the intended dimensions. Those sets lined up very closely to our average across all five cardboard sets, so this is likely. The only judgement call to make was whether or not it was intended for the 90 degree turn templates to have a uniform distance between them. We decided that it was, as this would allow formation flying. I busted out a few of our current sets to demonstrate. The templates, when squared, are equidistant from each other, and so allow perfect formations on 90s, which we believe is the intent.

Our templates match almost perfectly with what was determined to be the proper dimensions on Vassal (which we found out after the fact), and they have been fully approved for competitive play. They will not be identical to a set of cardboard templates for the reasons that have been listed here. Also, punch pressing cardboard is just not going to give you the same result that you’ll get by plotting and cutting a perfect curve with a laser.

If the concern here is competitive play, both players should be playing with the same set of templates regardless of which you're using. If either player is using cardboard, this is especially true, as any two cardboard sets might be different. But at the same time, the X-Wing community has done a fantastic job of setting the tone for competitive play, and the "fly casual" mentality is worth promoting. There's a phenomenal community built around this game, and a few mms shouldn't get in the way of all the work that has been done to make X-Wing the beacon of sportsmanship and camaraderie in tabletop gaming. If anyone at a local event is yelling about 1mm, kindly direct them to the Top 4 and Finals from Worlds for an education. :)

All that said, production errors are unlikely, but possible, and if you truly believe this has happened, I'd love for you to let me know.
 
I hope that helps put things into better perspective for you, but of course if there's anything else you'd like my help with I'm at your service!"
 
By the distance between I think he means this, which does seem to come out to an even 6mm if I'm managing to hold all the parts straight. Does that seem correct to you guys? (Note that this photo is at an angle and not with it all perfectly lined up.)
 
tumblr_n1beakPPde1sz2scho1_500.jpg

Edited by PenguinBonaparte, 20 February 2014 - 03:59 PM.


#66 dbmeboy

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:28 PM

I got a nearly identical response.  It's good enough for me, I'm perfectly willing to believe that there really is that much variation on the cardboard (and that the nature of the turn makes a small difference appear larger).  Plus, I think both of my cardboard sets are likely from the first print run so that could explain why they match each other and not the acrylic template.



#67 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:31 PM

Yeah, so I suppose that having this bigger 1 turn might make it so that if you do multiple turns in formation that you don't have the ships slowly drift apart. I'm still pretty clueless about how the manufacturing of the cardboard makes this particular error, but now that there's a rationale for why the 1T is the size it is, I feel better about it. I'll edit the first page post so no one gets the wrong idea if they don't read all the way through the thread. My only quibble with the set now is that the range ruler is about 1mm too short.

 

Looks like if you do the following maneuver and always line the template up flush with the same nub you'll drift apart by 1-2mm. The nub drift shows another way in which the variation in the templates evens out and isn't enough to make a big difference in most cases. 

 

tumblr_n1bgsrKZvD1sz2scho1_500.jpg


Edited by PenguinBonaparte, 20 February 2014 - 07:28 PM.


#68 AlexW

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:22 PM

I got a nearly identical response.  It's good enough for me, I'm perfectly willing to believe that there really is that much variation on the cardboard (and that the nature of the turn makes a small difference appear larger).  Plus, I think both of my cardboard sets are likely from the first print run so that could explain why they match each other and not the acrylic template.

 

Great information.  Thanks.



#69 DoubleNot7

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:37 PM

Have about 5 coresets worth of standard templates, they have no noticeable differencebetween them. I have the Corsec acrylic templates, they are spot on with the standard templates. I also love theirsmall and large ship firing arc templates.

Enimo Et Fide


#70 Asgo

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:52 AM

if one is looking that hard at the templates, I hope everyone also checked if the bases are absolutely identical (dimensions, pin placement), otherwise it's futile anyhow. :)


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#71 CrookedWookie

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:33 AM

if one is looking that hard at the templates, I hope everyone also checked if the bases are absolutely identical (dimensions, pin placement), otherwise it's futile anyhow. :)

Never mind the fact that the PRINTING is often off on some of the cardboard by a slight margin.  Sit all your ship templates side by side and I suspect you'll be surprised at how many of the fire arcs line up note quite perfectly with the corners.


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#72 stegocent

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:42 PM

If you take some fine sandpaper and carefully sand down each end of the "offending" templates, they will eventually match your cardboard ones. Seriously though, it shouldn't make much of a difference if both players use the same set of templates, no one gains any advantage or disadvantage. If I was playing someone quibbling over something so trivial, I would just pack up and go home. I play to have fun and when someone starts to suck the fun out of a game, I go play something else.


I'm also a Kiwi and I also agree :-)

Empire: 7 Tie/In, 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Tie/Int, 2 Imperial Aces  4 Tie/B, 2 Firespray-31, 3 Lambda

Rebel: 6 X-Wing, 2 Y-Wing, 2 A-Wing, 4 B-wing, 1 Yt-1300, 2 HWK-290, 2 GR-75, 1 CR-90





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