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Custom Templates Really Wrong?


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#21 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:31 AM

This is a Team Covenant Template and they say it's laser accurate to the originals. I got all my core sets between July and November, so maybe the 1 turn is that different in the original printing? Is there anyone with a first run of the game? I could scan my template and send it for comparison. You can see that when I'm holding them down against a flat surface the 1 turns don't even follow the same path. It's not just the length they were cut to. I would believe the acrylic was accurate if there weren't next to no variation in all three of my core sets.

 

I replied to the TC guy with the pics to double check on this, so we'll see whether that actually reflects the difference or I got a bad piece. I checked my cardboard against a Litko one, which was still in a bag so couldn't be as careful, but it seemed like there were smaller differences in length than with my TC and they all followed the same path.


Edited by PenguinBonaparte, 18 February 2014 - 11:33 AM.


#22 CrookedWookie

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:51 AM

Do we know if these 3rd party acrylic makers have obtained a set of the FFG ones, and started making copies of those?

 

I agree that cardboard is going to shrink and expand based on your climate, but if there are copies of the "official FFG" acrylic templates...i would think that would become the standard to base other templates from.

I don't know if they've done that.  I do know Adam with AP figured out about a year ago that the templates were designed so that if you sat a number of them end to end they form a perfect circle.  Once he knew that he was able to compare a bunch of cardboard sets, figure out from those what even number they were all hovering right around, and determine from that the exact ideal length and angle and everything they were meant to have.  And it's to that standard that he cuts all of his sets.  

Team Covenant has a page up on their 2.0 templates detailing how they made much the same discovery.  Not really a math guy myself, but Adam made it sound like it was pretty obvious, when he was able to determine that the templates should each form a circle when placed end to end, what ideal angle each of them was describing.



#23 Hexis

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:19 PM

IIRC the movement templates are all based on a very round number.  Perfect arcs, with a radius of 300mm or something super predictable.  The hard turns are clearly 90 degrees, the banks 45 degrees.  You take that and it's easy to draw up the templates in a CAD program without ever referencing the slightly irregular second generation cardboard (the first generation being the design files for the cardboard).  It is all based on the cardboard originally, just an idealized version of the cardboard templates that's not subject to humidity and other variability.

Ultimately the acrylic versions don't wear down like the cardboard, and if both players use the same set I can't see how it matters.  I always offer my acrylic set for use by both players in a tournament setting.


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#24 AlexW

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:44 PM

Honestly, if that one turn is that off (more from the blowback by an opponent), I'd find it concerning to some extent, but hopefully it's a set issue and not a team covenant issue.


Edited by AlexW, 18 February 2014 - 12:44 PM.


#25 dbmeboy

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:51 PM

I have a set of the TC templates (2.0) and they match almost exactly in length, shape, and width to my cardboard sets. There may be millimeter differences here and there, but certainly nothing obvious like in the pictures posted.

#26 StevenO

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:09 PM

What are the internal and external diameters on a full circle of templates?  It seems to be "know" that R1/R2/R3 are 10/20/30 cm long and the straights are related to those.  What are the diameters of the circle you get with the turn (4 should make the circle) and banks (which take 8 to make a full circle)?


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#27 wiles01

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:14 PM

There is always so much of a "fudge-factor" going on and some ships getting bumped, moved out of the way, replaced on the board a lot of times... I'm not going to make a fuss over .5mm to 1mm difference in the templates?

 

Truthfully, I can be a bit nitpicky when someone puts their ship at the end of a template and it is turned ever so slightly so it gets a bead on one of my ships for a firing arc or something, but for the most part I let it slide.  It's a game.

If someone thinks they won or lost a game because of the templates, they have other issues they probably need to address before worrying about that.  LOL


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#28 RedWilde

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:26 PM

All the die-cut ones are quite variable.  I have so many core sets, that I recycled all the range rulers that were shorter than 30cm or didn't have the range bands lined up matching on both sides.  I threw away more than I kept.



#29 Old Guy

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:36 PM

I just checked my Cog-o-Two's, and they are perfect with my cardboard stuff.



#30 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:38 PM

Well I got an informative reply from the TC guy, so maybe the recent printings of the core set are all uniformly screwed up? It's just still strange to me that the FFG printing is so uniformly off their prior one though. If there were variation between my three core sets it would be open and shut. I'll check the circle thing when I get home. It does sound like TC has  been very careful with it and I've seen plenty of cardboard ship bases that are poorly cut. This is a more difficult defect to understand from FFG. Hopefully it's ok to quote him since it should show that their product is right.

 

"If you measure your Covenant range ruler (it's the easiest) it will come out to 300mm, which is 11.811 inches.  That is the standard we derived for the templates not based off the cardboard ones, but rather FFG's own acrylic templates.  Your cardboard templates will be consistently inaccurate and as such I would not recommend them as a basis for comparison.  A famous example of this is that not only are the measurements regularly off on the cardboard versions, but in the case of the range ruler the 1, 2, & 3 ranges are different from the "green" side to the "red" side on the reverse!  In addition our measurement breaks occur at every 100mm on the range ruler, something that the cardboard ones don't do.  Not only are the measurements of the Covenant range ruler precise but the curvature and dimensions of the turns and banks are too.  The cardboard ones don't adhere to exact turn angles or distances but if you measure them empirically, you will note that they are going for rather obvious rounded/whole measurements that they simply fall short of. 
 
TLDR:  Your Covenant Templates are the real gold standard, and their variances between the cardboard ones are completely intentional and official in the eyes of FFG, and are a correction of the inaccuracies of the cardboard versions and not the other way around.  :)"

Edited by PenguinBonaparte, 18 February 2014 - 01:40 PM.

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#31 CrookedWookie

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:44 PM

Yeah pretty much what Penguin said/was told there is what I've heard from all the big acrylic template designers.



#32 Johdo

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

 

That is the standard we derived for the templates not based off the cardboard ones, but rather FFG's own acrylic templates.  

 

 

I guess that answers my question.


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#33 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:02 PM

It does imply that maybe the different reprints had different templates, since the Litko set I saw in a store seemed much closer to my cardboard ones.



#34 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:34 PM

Ok, maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but I can see all those explanations for most of them except the 1 straight. Did FFG maybe rework that one between waves? I set them up in circles and the angles don't seem at all wonky on the FFG ones, and the 2 and 3 fit reasonably well, but the 1 straight is further out. They all look like they were made with a different turn radius, so it doesn't quite fit the idea of bad cuts, parts wearing down, and all of that.

 

The widths on all pieces are a clean 2cm. The distance traveled on each axis of the 1T is 45mm exactly for the FFG pieces, 47.5 for the TC. Using my FFG pieces do do a full circle with the 1T it seems to line up nicely. If anyone who got the game at first release could measure the IT and see how far you go I'd appreciate it a ton!

 

 

tumblr_n17ns69q1N1sz2scho2_500.jpg

tumblr_n17ns69q1N1sz2scho1_500.jpg

 

They're right about the TC range ruler too, with 100mm exactly for ranges 1 and 2, but it's 0.5mm too short on range 3.

 

 
*edit* The numbers in the curves are off center on the FFG pieces, but I'm not sure how you'd get cuts consistently the same amount closer to the center with mass production wear and tear and have no idea what this manufacturing equipment is either.

Edited by PenguinBonaparte, 18 February 2014 - 06:11 PM.


#35 Darkjawa

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:34 PM

I just got my TC II templates in today and I have to say these things are beautiful!! The only one that I see to be a hair off is the 1 banking turn. The rest, even the range ruler are spot on. I recommend these to any player who has the extra cash to spend on them.



#36 PenguinBonaparte

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:46 PM

Glad you like them; they definitely look great! Would you mind measuring the 1 turn for the TC and FFG pieces to see how far they go horizontally?



#37 MikeEMcGee

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:26 PM

My Litko's came in today, and thanks to this thread I just finished measuring. All good. I'm very happy with my purchase.

#38 AlexW

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:30 PM

Glad you like them; they definitely look great! Would you mind measuring the 1 turn for the TC and FFG pieces to see how far they go horizontally?

 

I just measured mine -- two core sets and three TC sets and 1-turn does look off significantly by comparison.   Both my Core sets were purchased this fall, so unless FFG changed them there is a slight difference.


Edited by AlexW, 18 February 2014 - 08:32 PM.


#39 Gullwind

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:07 PM

I just got a set of Applied Perspective templates, and they are for all practical purposes identical to the set of cardboard templates I've been using for the last year. Even the 1-turn is the same.



#40 Parravon

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:52 AM

If you take some fine sandpaper and carefully sand down each end of the "offending" templates, they will eventually match your cardboard ones. Seriously though, it shouldn't make much of a difference if both players use the same set of templates, no one gains any advantage or disadvantage. If I was playing someone quibbling over something so trivial, I would just pack up and go home. I play to have fun and when someone starts to suck the fun out of a game, I go play something else.


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