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Rebels: 3 great ships or 4 ok ships?


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#21 AlexW

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:19 PM

What would you consider the best overall approach for a Rebels squad?

 

Quantity or Quality?

 

With three ships, the margin of error is small, and upgrading three rebel ships doesn't make up for the lack of a fourth ship defensively, nor do you have enough firepower to take down your enemy quickly enough.   The good news is there are a lot of four ship builds that allow both.  I fly four ship builds and regularly have two named pilots with a couple of upgrades and two unamed, lower PS skill pilots.


Edited by AlexW, 17 February 2014 - 07:42 PM.


#22 Englishpete

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:01 PM

One thing that is being overlooked in this 3 v 4 argument is PS. Three rebels of the type I posted will almost certainly kill one of your four ships before you shoot back. That makes it 3 vs 3 and then I have the higher PS next round again.

 

This is not theory. I've flown that build over two dozen times against all types of list, Imp and Rebel and lost only once to Han and 2x Blue B and that was with the HWK going down to the last B with 2 Hull left.


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#23 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:05 PM

I don't think it's 3 Greats vs 4 Okays.

I think it's 3 Greats vs 4 Goods vs 5 Good/Okay mixed.

 

All have their merits, but the more ships your opponent has to chew through, the harder it is for them to win, typically.

 

Of course, I prefer 6 kinda bads with 1 Great (a Howlrunner Swarm)



#24 Captain_Arrr

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:43 PM

Quantity without a doubt. Elite pilots are virtually useless. I ran a 3 ship build at worlds and I flew flawlessly. However I couldn`t survive the fire coming at me. 2 of my games literally came to a dice roll that I lost.

Yes 3 elite pilots shoot first......however I disagree they can take down one of the 4 ships. Because no matter how low that lower pilot is they have defense dice or hull to dampen or nullify that awesome attack. It can be done but it has everything to do with dice and nothing to do with skill.

Play quality for fun and if you don`t mind losing the vast majority of your games. If you want to win bring 4 ships. Or better yet 5.

#25 SolennelBern

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:45 PM

This squad look really fun EnglishPete!

 

Edit: and for unknown reasons quotes don't work...


Edited by SolennelBern, 17 February 2014 - 09:46 PM.


#26 AlexW

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:58 PM

One thing that is being overlooked in this 3 v 4 argument is PS. Three rebels of the type I posted will almost certainly kill one of your four ships before you shoot back. That makes it 3 vs 3 and then I have the higher PS next round again.
 
This is not theory. I've flown that build over two dozen times against all types of list, Imp and Rebel and lost only once to Han and 2x Blue B and that was with the HWK going down to the last B with 2 Hull left.


Not discounting your experience, but I don't see many three fighter lists recommended and I think they've mostly disappeared from the top tables in competitive play.

#27 SolennelBern

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:05 PM

That's exactly what I'm starting to "hate" (hate being a bit harsh but i,ts the only word I have in mind after 2 horrific games)  about X-Wing: If you don't kneel to the cookie cutting you don't really stand a chance against in leagues and up. 

 

I'm in a "casual" league where you mostly see the same "cliché" squads you all talk about here. 

 

I must say though that I don't condemn or spit on those lists and they're all great and work awesomely well but you can't get wins and have fun when you keep losing, bad rolls apart, against those list with your "for fun" squad.

 

Leagues and competitive play as it's place expecially with a game like X-Wing but maybe it's just not for me.



#28 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:12 PM

As you get better at group tactics, you can start to handle larger groups.
As your local meta gets better at fighting groups, you can start to handle smaller groups.

It's all the dance of the Metagame, and I like that this game is flexible enough to handle it.



#29 SolennelBern

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:16 PM

Yeah but when you have some players that have 200+ games behind them (including Vassal) mixed with some, like me that have less then 30, it make you realise that your "fun list" is not helping you at all lol.

 

But it's all for the game and I love this game but I realise that I prefer the casual play where everything is playable and viable ;)



#30 GroggyGolem

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:23 PM

This is it

Wedge Antilles (33)

R2 Astromech, Push the Limit


Ibtisam (32)

Advanced Sensors, Veteran Instincts


Jan Ors (34)

Determination, Blaster Turret, Nien Nunb, Moldy Crow

I don't see a reason to have Blaster Turret unless you are running Kyle Katarn with Recon and Moldy Crow. Could I get your thoughts about why you choose that specifically?


Edited by GroggyGolem, 17 February 2014 - 10:24 PM.

Rebels: 3 X-Wing, 1 Y-Wing, 1 A-Wing, 1 B-Wing, 1 YT-1300

Imperials: 5 TIE/LN, 1 TIE/ADV, 1 TIE/IN, 1 Firespray-31


#31 Joker Two

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:33 PM

Yeah but when you have some players that have 200+ games behind them (including Vassal) mixed with some, like me that have less then 30, it make you realise that your "fun list" is not helping you at all lol.

 

But it's all for the game and I love this game but I realise that I prefer the casual play where everything is playable and viable ;)

 

Worlds last year was my first tournament, and I remember feeling very similar.  I'd been on the forums a bit, but I'd never seen players line their ships up in a grid for perfect (and entirely skillless and predictable) turns, or even heard the term "jousting" applied to the game.  Every opponent I faced fielded R2-D2 with a Shield Upgrade on either Luke or Wedge.  It was an eye-opener, to say the least.

 

Take my advice; play with your friends, run some scenarios, field quirky lists, repaint your ships, whatever is fun.  And if/when you do go to tournaments, challenge the meta.  Take your custom-painted a-little-bit-of-everything list and knife-fight in the asteroids.  You may not win, but you'll have played your game on your terms, and that's what's really important.


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#32 Danthrax

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:47 PM

 

This is it

Wedge Antilles (33)

R2 Astromech, Push the Limit


Ibtisam (32)

Advanced Sensors, Veteran Instincts


Jan Ors (34)

Determination, Blaster Turret, Nien Nunb, Moldy Crow

I don't see a reason to have Blaster Turret unless you are running Kyle Katarn with Recon and Moldy Crow. Could I get your thoughts about why you choose that specifically?

 

 

To make Jan a useful gun, perhaps, so the squad doesn't have just two attackers, heh. HWKs are almost useless without a Blaster Turret, even when making use of a named pilot's ability.

 

 

I think that looks like a neat squad, although this would be my version of it:

 

Wedge (30)

R2 Astromech

 

Ibtisam (35)

Push the Limit

Engine Upgrade

 

Jan Ors (34)

Adrenaline Rush

Blaster Turret

Nien Numb

Moldy Crow

 

My Ibtisam build is totally different from Englishpete's. PTL and Engine Upgrade are the only way to run Ibtisam — they help put stress on her, which she wants for her ability. That required sacrificing the Marksmanship on Wedge, but that should be OK when Jan is helping him. And I like Jan with Adrenaline Rush rather than Determination because it helps a little with moving while she's stressed, which she should be often.



#33 AlexW

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:50 PM

That's exactly what I'm starting to "hate" (hate being a bit harsh but i,ts the only word I have in mind after 2 horrific games) about X-Wing: If you don't kneel to the cookie cutting you don't really stand a chance against in leagues and up.

I'm in a "casual" league where you mostly see the same "cliché" squads you all talk about here.

I must say though that I don't condemn or spit on those lists and they're all great and work awesomely well but you can't get wins and have fun when you keep losing, bad rolls apart, against those list with your "for fun" squad.

Leagues and competitive play as it's place expecially with a game like X-Wing but maybe it's just not for me.

Then I have to ask why even ask the question or frame it as you did? It seems odd to me to ask the original question and then respond with this post. I think you'd be better off with a list or idea and them ask how to tweak it. My above response is ironic in that I go to pains to try and design a less played squad, but that doesn't seem like what your post was asking for at all.

The game, with two factions and a handful of ships will favor certain combinations. Frankly it's a testament to the game that that there are as many that work. And, with wave four, epic play, etc...the options will continue to expand..

Edited by AlexW, 17 February 2014 - 11:05 PM.


#34 AlexW

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:04 PM

 
But it's all for the game and I love this game but I realise that I prefer the casual play where everything is playable and viable ;)


Everything is playable, but even in casual play there is going to be a disparity in the game due to list building, which I think is what you mean by viable. In fact when two players choose things based completely on what seems fun to them without worrying about how competitive the list is. I think that you are actually more likely to have that disparity than two players who at least keep competitive balance in mind.

I try to strike a balance. I love the Awing but realize I can't fly a full list of them if I want to keep things competitive. So then I try to figure out how many I can include to still keep games interesting, since I also don't care about completely min/maxing my list for a competitive edges.

Anyway, I get what you mean, but I thought I'd offer that perspective.
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#35 LeoHowler

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:53 PM

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with squads that have a single squad leader and 2 or 3 generic pilots added to it provided the leader has something good running for the rest of the team. Here's something I've been thinking up for a little bit.

 

Dutch Vander: (23) Ion Turret (5) R5-K6 (2) for 30

Rebel Operative: (16) Blaster Turret (4) Recon Specialist (3) for 23 times 2 for 46

This leaves 24 points for pretty much whatever low skilled pilot you can fit in here. Gold Squadron with an Ion Turret and R2 unit works fine at the moment or a B-Wing of some sort, but I'm toying with the idea of two Z-95's or Tarn Mison (A pilot skill 3 X-Wing) if his ability happens to be good.


~Remember Alderaan~

Alliance Fleet: 4 X-Wings, 3 Y-Wings, 3 A-Wings, 2 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290, 2 YT-1300, 1 GR-75

Imperial Navy: 5 TIE Fighters, 1 TIE Bomber, 2 TIE Interceptors, 1 TIE Advance x1, 1 Lambda Class Shuttle, 2 Firespray 31


#36 SolennelBern

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:44 AM

@AlexW: Sorry about that, I was coming back from another abysmal game where I again couldn't land hits and downed 0 enemy ships.  4 Hits total this game, after 11 turns and attacking mostly with 3 dice.  That was a real downer.  I'm sorry if my comment made you feel that way, it was not on prupose nor was it intentionnal.



#37 Stone37

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:48 AM

As a Rebel player, you have the advantage when it comes to movement.  (I can hear people screaming about the superiority of the Tie dial now. lol)  If you don't understand this truth, I suggest you learn the "Rule of 11".

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets.  Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake.  Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

Biggs+R2D2+Shield Upgrade

Jan+Ion Turret

Ten+Adv. Sensor+Marksmanship

 

Keep Biggs at 2-3 range to draw fire away from Jan and Ten.  Jan will set up easy shots and provide re-rolls while Biggs and Ten should be killing something almost every round.


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#38 Captain_Arrr

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:05 AM

Just adding another ship just to add it unfortunately is necessary.

As a Rebel player, you have the advantage when it comes to movement. (I can hear people screaming about the superiority of the Tie dial now. lol) If you don't understand this truth, I suggest you learn the "Rule of 11".
That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.
Biggs+R2D2+Shield Upgrade
Jan+Ion Turret
Ten+Adv. Sensor+Marksmanship

Keep Biggs at 2-3 range to draw fire away from Jan and Ten. Jan will set up easy shots and provide re-rolls while Biggs and Ten should be killing something almost every round.

Just adding another ship just to add it unfortunately is necessary. I am sorry but a build like this will lose the war of attrition. Biggs has the most defensive dice. A 4 ship build with 2 Bs and 2 Xs will eventually win. A 5 ship build will eat it for breakfast.

Sorry but I am in the camp of SolennelBern. After getting wiped at Worlds I realized this game is all abput hull. Especially when a ist with 5 TIE bombers and Howlrunner is a hair breath away from getting into the top 16. The player who can fly 6 plus ships wins. Period.

Edited by Captain_Arrr, 18 February 2014 - 11:24 AM.

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#39 Stone37

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:17 AM

Just adding another ship just to add it unfortunately is necessary.

As a Rebel player, you have the advantage when it comes to movement.  (I can hear people screaming about the superiority of the Tie dial now. lol)  If you don't understand this truth, I suggest you learn the "Rule of 11".
That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets.  Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake.  Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.
Biggs+R2D2+Shield Upgrade
Jan+Ion Turret
Ten+Adv. Sensor+Marksmanship
 
Keep Biggs at 2-3 range to draw fire away from Jan and Ten.  Jan will set up easy shots and provide re-rolls while Biggs and Ten should be killing something almost every round.


Just adding another ship just to add it unfortunately is necessary. I am sorry but a build like this will lose the war of attrition. Biggs has the most defensive dice. A 4 ship build with 2 Bs and 2 Xs will eventually win. A 5 ship build will eat it for breakfast.

Sorry but I am in the camp of SolennelBern. After getting wiped at Worlds I realized this game is all abput hull. Especially when a ist with 5 TIE bombers and Howlrunner.....and thats it. The player who can fly 6 plus ships wins. Period.

 

This has not been my experience.  And I've enjoyed winning with this build.  Biggs, when flown correctly, is a Tie swarm pain in the butt.  R2-D2 keeps him around and I've played several games were I haven't lost a single ship.  This is a very balanced and well made game.  ANY 100 point squad has a chance of beating another 100 point squad.  The ships and their abilities do not decide the outcome of a game.  The player's skill does.  That being said, It is much harder to run a 3 ship squad than a 4.  There is little to no room for error with the build I suggested.  For players building squads to take to a tourney:  Know your strengths and weaknesses and build around them.  Also, repeat this montra: IT'S A GAME, SO HAVE FUN WHILE PLAYING IT!  :D


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#40 SolennelBern

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:37 AM

But it's when you finish a game and count 4 total damage done in 100+ die rolled that you realise that you have to be good to Lady Luck or she'll destroy you :P






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