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New comprehensive rulebook ..Is it time ?


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#21 ktom

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:36 AM

What part of the Core Rules do people think need to be updated or corrected? 99% of questions have to do with the FAQ and advanced interactions between cards not in the Core Set. Why introduce those advanced concepts before someone has learned the basics?

#22 mdc273

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:13 PM

What part of the Core Rules do people think need to be updated or corrected? 99% of questions have to do with the FAQ and advanced interactions between cards not in the Core Set. Why introduce those advanced concepts before someone has learned the basics?

 

They should definitely include the timing structure in the core rules. That's about the only thing I think needs to be added there off the top of my head. That's the one glaring item missing. It's in the Netrunner rulebook and should be appended to new versions of the Core Set Rulebook for sure.



#23 mdprice

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:58 PM

For starters I think the Core Rules should be updated to include the new things introduced in the game with the later cycles, seasons, shadows, melee, joust, cards at command, prized, naval enhancement and whatever else I missed. It's hard when having to look things up to go find the right piece of paper etc. The FAQ has most of that though when playing and needing to look things up it's much easier when it's in the rules because the quality of the printing is so much better. Also the new player may buy things out of order. I know I had many cards with shadows and ignored them for a bit because I didn't know how they worked.

 

I would like to see a short glossary of terminology that is used in cards. I know this is in the FAQ but I feel a page of definitions would be quite helpful for the new player. I would have looked at that when first starting out before I read the FAQ because that intimidated me with its denseness and flowcharts etc. There were several cards that I ignored at first because I didn’t understand them and didn’t want to worry about them during a game. For example I didn’t get from the rules that an event card was a triggered effect so having immunity to triggered effects meant immunity to events.

 

To me, the reason the core rules are harder to use is that they were written teach the game to a novice. It’s a completely different set of goals than writing for an experienced player. For example this means that they are ordered differently, a general flow with basic turn instructions followed by advanced info at the end. When we’re looking at the rules to resolve some issue usually we need the detailed description of exactly what happens rather that the simplified version that the novice needs.

 

Maybe a better way to approach the problem is to expand the FAQ to be an authoritative rule set rather than needing the core rules + the FAQ.  I would like to see it have all the rules in one place. So for example have the flow charts then explain what exactly happens in each Framework Event. That would go a long ways towards having a single place with all the info we need. I would then update the FAQ with each new addition from the new cycles at the same time I’d say they should split it into two parts, FAQ-rules, FAQ-errata/restricted.

 

An interesting example that of something that I didn't see in the rule book (I bet it's there somewhere but I don't know where) when I was just starting out was the fact that triggered effects, specifically responses, are completely optional. I was looking at Dragon Thief and thinking wouldn't this be risky, what it I played him and I had a attachment while my opponent didn't, would I have to discard that attachment? It was actually surprisingly hard to answer this question at first. I didn't know what to look for in the rules and trying to just find that info in the FAQ is next to impossible when I didn’t understand all the terminology. Eventually I was reading the FAQ through and found the answer in section on Card Effect Interpretations in the definition of Triggered Effects. But until I understood what triggered effects were there was no way I would know that a response is a triggered effect and to look there. This goes back to my point that the Core Rules should have a short glossary.

 

These are my thoughts being a relatively new player without knowing anyone else to help me learn the rules.


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#24 ktom

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:32 PM

I can understand why FFG doesn't want to include Shadows, Melee, Joust, Naval, etc. in the Core Rules. There are no cards with those mechanics in the set, so why confuse people. We already get questions every couple of months or so asking what is wrong with their Core Set because they can't find the Agendas. All of the sets and chapter packs that include those mechanics come with rule sheets, so yeah, since the assumption is that the Core Set is being bought as an introduction, the rule book needs to not overwhelm.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't on that one. Sounds like another vote for "overhaul the FAQ."

Out of curiosity, what rules are there for "seasons" that could be included anywhere?

#25 LordOWar

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:32 AM

The fact that it can be Summer and Winter at the same time. 



#26 Khudzlin

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:40 AM

There are no rules on seasons. It's all card effects. It can be Summer and Winter at the same time precisely because of this. Remember we're talking about Westeros, a fictional world where seasons last for years and do not match up with agricultural practices.



#27 ktom

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

+1. Wanting the rules to say it can be Summer and Winter at the same time is like wanting the rules to say a character can have the Wildling and the Night's Watch traits at the same time.



#28 Bomb

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 06:07 AM

C'mon. Seasons don't belong in the core rule book. They don't even exist in the core set. Its almost like saying kneel effects need to be in the core rule book.

BTW if anything, it being be summer and winter at the same time would belong in the FAQ.

#29 mdc273

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:16 AM

Why don't all game mechanics belong in the Core Rulebook? Someone needs to know what the seasons are to play against them. What if they don't own a pamphlet that explains it and then play someone with the seasons stuff?

 

There is no reason they can't have the final page as "Concepts introduced in chapter packs that are not present in the core set" and throw everything under the sun in there so that people can just flip open the rulebook. All of those pamphlets would go under that section because those concepts are critical to understanding the game when you're playing the first few times against them. You'll be playing when you probably don't have any chapter packs against these things you don't understand. It'd be helpful to at least give them a page to refer to when they go home and not "go find it in the FAQ".

 

It's not like it added 100 pages to the rulebook to include the pamphlets. Hell they wouldn't even need to rewrite anything really.


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#30 Daenarys

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:39 AM

I agree that all concepts be in the core rule book and there could just be asteriks next to the themes/ concepts that do not appear until you purchase expansions or chapter packs.

 

Also i am suggesting that the rulebook does not just have to contain the rules but could also perhaps have a short history/ bio of the different houses and a glossary of terminologies would be fantastic, by adding additional information you then expand this into something that is not just a rulebook but a collectors piece and as such i would imagine this would become fiscally more viable.

 

I understand this would not be for everyone but i have seen another positive responses when resins were sold or indeed thrones card sleeves to make me believe that this could be financially profitable to FFG.



#31 Bomb

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:46 AM

I do think a Glossary would be a nice addition to the core rule book as I've seen the way it's used in the Star Wars LCG(btw, if they update their core rules each time a new card effect comes out, I'd be very surprised).

 

Why don't all game mechanics belong in the Core Rulebook? Someone needs to know what the seasons are to play against them. What if they don't own a pamphlet that explains it and then play someone with the seasons stuff?

 

I give up on this thread.


Edited by Bomb, 25 February 2014 - 11:48 AM.


#32 mdc273

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:49 AM

What?



#33 Totalgit

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:28 PM

So after buying some of the premium ccg started decks (Ice and Fire & Winter Edition) the rulebooks provided in those boxes are a perfect example of how the core booklet should be and they are about 1/3 the size.

They have the faq timing charts in them and examples of challenges.



#34 doulos2k

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:21 PM

I submit the "agenda" mentions in the Core Rule book as an example of WHY these other mechanics simply shouldn't be there. There are no agendas in the Core Set and people still get confused when they open that box and wonder if they were somehow missing the agendas. (Yes, there is a spot where it says they aren't included... but it's still confusing for people). Including Shadows, Prized, Naval... any of that, is just going to confuse people further. They're going to look for those cards before comprehensively reading and discovering the "oh by the way, none of these types of cards are included."

 

But, I do agree that the timing chart should be included... ONCE THEY FIX IT (so that it agrees with the timing write-ups... plot "when revealeds" are a framework step? Huh?)


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