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New comprehensive rulebook ..Is it time ?


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#1 Daenarys

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:40 PM

Having played for about two years now and thousands of games in total i still find the game a great deal of fun and especially enjoy when new decks are created.....however....it can be an arduous task revisiting the core book and faq and then these forums to get precise clarifications. This happens when you play more games, encounter more scenarios and become more fluid as a player.

 

 

I think a release of a hardback edition rule book that encompasses the core and faq with additional situational examples would be fantastic . Not only would it be a source of reference in one place ( i understand this would get less complete as new chapters are released ) but i think would appeal to collectors all things Game of Thrones, this in the same way as the house resins that serve no real purpose yet have a huge demand.

 

I'm sure if such a book was released for about £15 /$25 there would be a demand and could actually help bring new players in for the long term as they have one ( at least initial ) source for the game.

 

 

Thoughts ?



#2 stormwolf27

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:15 PM

Though this would be a good idea in the short run, with the new mechanics and rulings on specific situations coming out so rapidly, not to mention the errata on cards that are found to be worded incorrectly for their intended purpose, it would not be a fiscally prudent solution.

 

If they printed a hard cover edition of the comprehensive rules and released it every time something changes, they would ultimately end up losing money, because fewer and fewer people would buy them as they began to realize the frequency at which they were released.

 

On the flip side, even if they only released it on a regular schedule like with the current FAQ releases, they'd run into the same problem as they do with the FAQ. People would have questions in between releases that they would have to check the fora and/or ask rules questions via the link on the web site.

 

The current method of releasing digital, free, copies of the FAQ on a semi-regular basis is the most consumer friendly and fiscally responsible way for them to distribute this type of material. It just honestly makes more business sense.


Edited by stormwolf27, 17 February 2014 - 03:16 PM.

"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#3 mdc273

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:37 PM

I agree, the rules tend to be getting a lot of updates On the flip side, they could do it and have a "spirit of the rules" section to try and cut off any of the niggling things that come up a lot. It'd be cool as an art book with a rules update. I might buy it if the art was good.

 

There's a solid foundation they could clearly lay down, then they could throw on the "spirit of the rules" and add some art and you might be able to sell me on it.



#4 Bomb

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:52 PM

I am hoping for a coloring book with word search puzzles.
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#5 Khudzlin

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:26 AM

A website detailing comprehensive rules would be best. It could be updated whenever a ruling is made and players would see the changes as soon as they reconnect.



#6 HastAttack

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:35 AM

Most issues seem to relate to quite basic rules / basic principles

 

The core rule book is pants - so little gems are easily overlooked

The FAQ is a bit disjointed and doesn't replace the core rules - things like basic flowcharts help but there is a lot of scope for improvement ... some actual written text explanations to fo with it would help

 

I'm remembering all the incorrect rules that I learnt at the start and areas poeple still have problems with - you have to wonder what it is that leads to e.g. the recent question as to what is the the correct thing to do with renown - where both options A and B were so wrong!!!

 

I was thinking about what I would do (for such a book)

 

I think I would start with full details of power - as that is the crux of the game

Then details of challenges, when they fizzle, when they don't, relevent of strength before resolution, at resolutiion... as that has to be the second most relevent thing

....



#7 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:15 PM

First off, it should be well known that my views on the need for something like this are biased and suspect because I don't find the rules complicated. Voluminous, maybe, but not complicated. So take the rest of this with a grain of salt.

 

While I certainly agree that FFG has allowed the rules and rules documents to develop with a number of inconsistencies and unclear terms that invite confusion, I don't think that a new "comprehensive rulebook" - especially one that will be out-of-date almost before it is printed - is the answer.

 

For one thing, a great deal of confusion in the community seems to boil down to a lack of reading comprehension. I'm not sure what FFG is supposed to do differently with "Renown" in a "comprehensive rule book" to be clearer about how it works than what is already in the Core Rules (note that the recent questions were answered by quoting the Core Rules), and the timing example in the FAQ with Robert Baratheon.

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not busting on the guy who asked the question. We all make mistakes and misread the rules from time to time. But when we go back and re-read them and find out we were wrong (and, as mentioned, having to unlearn the mistake), we are far more likely to say, "FFG could have said that a lot better" instead of, "Oh, I get it now; don't I feel silly." All I'm saying is that when we don't understand the rule, it isn't always because FFG said it badly (although yes, that does happen).

 

The other "problem" is that, as a community, we tend to be too literal, learning the specific example instead of the general rule. So if we run into the same situation with different cards, we don't always recognize it for what it is. People aren't always good at applying the rule to new situations. For example, when Shadows was first introduced, people refused to believe that cards that are returned to Shadows go through "moribund." They were focused on the specific example list in the FAQ saying "out of play states include the deck, hand, discard pile and dead pile," completely ignoring the general rule of "cards that transition from 'in play' to 'out of play' go through moribund." Admittedly: FFG didn't really help with that because they added "Shadows" to the list instead of reiterating the general rule.

 

The result, anyway, is that a lot of people tend to look at the AGoT rules as a very loose framework with a lot of exceptions you just have to learn, when it is really a fairly detailed framework which doesn't rely on the details in the majority of situations.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure a "comprehensive rulebook" with more text and more examples would reverse those two basic trends (misreading and learning the example, not the concept) in not understanding the rules.

 

I think the better place to start, really, would be for FFG to do a complete overhaul of the language in the Core Rules and FAQ to make it more internally consistent and clearly move examples and illustrations of rules to example text (to help people stop mistaking the examples and illustrations for the complete rule). I think that, in the long run, this would be better than a prestige format rulebook that ultimately doesn't do much more than give more examples for the same stuff people are already confused by.

 

~ Maybe I could freelance that for them....


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#8 -Istaril

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:29 PM

~ Maybe I could freelance that for them....

 

That's a lot of work. I'm not sure how much it'd help the general perception, because there are still many cases where the templating on the cards is contributing to the problem, but I can think of a number of cases that could be clarified with a re-templating of the core rules. If it really is something you'd be willing to start, I'd be happy to contribute to the process.



#9 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:00 PM

Well, by "freelance," I meant "hire me to do the project."

 

If we were to just sit down and start going through the docs (and yes, I have considered it), the best that could be said for the final product is that it would be a "officially unofficial." Is all the effort worth it for something that carries no real weight?



#10 mdc273

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:57 PM

I'd honestly be scared to buy a rulebook written by Ktom. You can be a little wordy in your explanations, especially when a simple yes or no will do.

 

 

And holy cow I can't see how people are getting Renown wrong. No offense, it's just crazy since it's really clearly spelt out. I guess 'participating characters' isn't obvious?

 

I think what would really benefit pretty much ALL of the rules is a bunch of yes or no questions in each section.

 

Robert Baratheon did not participate in a challenge that I won as the defender. Does he claim Renown?

No.

 

Greatjon Umber participated in a challenge and won while having Renown. I wasn't the attacker or defender. Does he claim a power?

No.

 

Eddard Stark participated in a challenge I won as the attacker. Does he claim a power?

Yes.

 

Literally no other answer but yes or no. If you have to explain the answer to any degree, rewrite the question. I feel like a lot of the times that simplicity and clarity is missing from the rules. Each answer to an FAQ question seems to be a paragraph long.



#11 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

Literally no other answer but yes or no. If you have to explain the answer to any degree, rewrite the question. I feel like a lot of the times that simplicity and clarity is missing from the rules. Each answer to an FAQ question seems to be a paragraph long.

 

That, by the way, is part of the point I was trying to make. Boiling it down to "yes" or "no" doesn't help people learn or apply the rules (which is why I rarely end with a "yes" or "no," even if that is the simplest answer). Spend enough time in this community and you find that if the question is...

 

Robert Baratheon did not participate in a challenge that I won as the defender. Does he claim Renown?

No.

 

... the next question is, "Eddard Stark did not participate in a challenge that I won as the defender. Does he claim Renown?"

 

Take your own recent example with Darkstar and Narrow Escape. We could boil that question down to:

 

I just discarded my hand to cancel Narrow Escape. The Darkstar was in my hand. Does he enter play?

No.

 

Did that answer really satisfy you? And does it help you answer a question like "I just discarded my hand to cancel Narrow Escape. Can I trigger the Response on Ser Gregor's Dog?"

 

 

I really think the answers need to be "Yes, because..." and "No, because...". That way, you have a chance at avoiding the need to answer the same question over and over again because people are more likely to clue in to the fact that it is the same question.



#12 snowfrost

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:00 PM

I collect questions and answers for every card,then write a "Card by Card FAQ" in Chinese,I think it's good for beginner.

If I forget something when I play AGOT,I can also check the answer quickly.

 

The link of My "Card by Card FAQ" is here http://yun.baidu.com...5&uk=3960395049


Edited by snowfrost, 18 February 2014 - 10:04 PM.


#13 mdc273

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:03 PM

That, by the way, is part of the point I was trying to make. Boiling it down to "yes" or "no" doesn't help people learn or apply the rules (which is why I rarely end with a "yes" or "no," even if that is the simplest answer). Spend enough time in this community and you find that if the question is...

 

I agree with you that lengthy explanations are needed. It's just that succinct ones are needed, too. I think you need both.

 

Here's an example of a bad explanation:

 

"Does Burning Bridges (Queen of Dragons F49) prevent a duplicate from being used to save a character?

 

Burning Bridges reads, "Players cannot trigger abilities on character, location, and attachment cards in play." It is referring to
triggered abilities printed on the cards. Because the saves granted by duplicates is a "gained" ability rather than a printed one Burning Bridges does not have any effect on them."

 

It lacks a 'No.' at the beginning and end of the explanation. A flat 'no' means that there is no room for someone reading it and going "Well was that a yes or a no?" Even "Burning Bridges does not prevent a duplicate from being used to save a character" would be better than the way it was answered.

 

Here's another example:

 

"Does Heavy Taxes (A Poisoned Spear F116) affect the gold counted before or after Black Raven's (A Song of Summer F2) effect has the players take 1 gold?

The players each count their plot gold and all the income bonuses they each have in play. If this number is greater than 4, the rest is disregarded because of Heavy Taxes. When the player takes the gold from the treasury Black Raven causes each player to take 1 additional gold token. The same is true of when White Raven is in play, all numbers above 4 are disregarded and then White Raven causes each player to take 1 less gold token from the treasury."

 

The opening line should be "Gold is counted, Heavy Taxes is applied, then the Ravens add or subtract from the new total and gold is taken from the pool" or something to that effect. Instead it gives an explanation of the rules with no clear and concise answer. The answer is obviously correct, but I would bet $100 that there is someone who read that and went "Wtf?"

 

The entry after Burning Bridges is a good example of how to answer a question, amusingly.

 

"Can a card with an "any House except X" restriction be used in a deck running the Neutral Faction House card?

 

Yes. Such cards may be used in any deck that is not using the House card specified by its restriction."

 

It answers the question clearly and succinctly, then explains the answer.

 

There are tons of good and bad examples in the FAQ. It is very inconsistent in it's ability to both clearly and succinctly answer a question, then explain it. A lot of times it answers the question by explaining the rules in depth and not giving a clear and succinct response.

 

It's not the lengthy explanations I mind. Those are obviously important. It's brevity, clarity, and succinctness for those who see the explanation and go "Wtf did I just read?" that I am concerned about.


Edited by mdc273, 19 February 2014 - 12:04 PM.

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#14 HastAttack

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:24 AM

For the Burning Bridges suggestion, my reaction was that if someone only reads "No" as the answer, they wouldn't really learn anything and would be asking a similar question for a similar scenario soon afterwards

 

Specific examples should only be considered as instances of more generic situations - ideally you want to identify the general rule / reason why something occurs

 

Then we have the Heavy Taxes ... I did read that original posting and did indeed think WTF! ~ so that made me chuckle :)



#15 ktom

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:52 AM

It's not the lengthy explanations I mind. Those are obviously important. It's brevity, clarity, and succinctness for those who see the explanation and go "Wtf did I just read?" that I am concerned about.

 

Which made me think of another way we, as a community, tend to confuse ourselves. We have a tendency to answer questions that weren't asked. It's what I call - less than charitably, I admit - the "I want to post" or "See how smart I am" posts.

 

As an example, consider the question of "Can I use a dupe while Burning Bridges is out." Someone answers "Yes, because Burning Bridges only stops you from triggering text printed on the cards in play." Someone else will then chime in, "But you can still use Meera Reed or Core-Khal Drogo because they're not in play when you trigger them." And so on. We are now pretty far afield from "can I use a dupe," but we've made it look like all this other stuff needs to be considered as part of the answer to the dupe question.

 

Another example is when someone makes a statement like, "Yes, that can happen, but it tends not to be a big problem because (House) has so few ways to do (X)." Such statements invariably result in a list of all the ways (House) can do (X) - no matter how practical. None of it adds much insight to the original question/answer exchange that "it can happen, but it tends not to be a big problem," but at least everyone got to be part of the thread.

 

And yes, I see the irony of even posting this mini-rant to begin with.



#16 mdc273

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:54 PM

Haha. We're all guilty of it. I know I do it way too much.

 

For the Burning Bridges suggestion, my reaction was that if someone only reads "No" as the answer, they wouldn't really learn anything and would be asking a similar question for a similar scenario soon afterwards

 

Specific examples should only be considered as instances of more generic situations - ideally you want to identify the general rule / reason why something occurs

 

Then we have the Heavy Taxes ... I did read that original posting and did indeed think WTF! ~ so that made me chuckle :)

 

Oh I agree about Burning Bridges not simply being a no. It needs all that extra explanation. I just feel that the first thing that should be taken away is the clear and concise answer to the question, then the explanation of the answer.

 

You could always do the explanation and end with the clear and concise answer as a final stand alone sentence, too (e. g. TL:DR). I just think it's the main ingredient lacking in a lot of the weaker explanations.



#17 LordOWar

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:36 PM

Fantasy Flight reprints the Core Set and Chapter Packs whenever products are low, or out of stock.

 

Sometime in December (2013) the Core set was scheduled to be reprinted. 

 

It seems to me that this would have been an ideal time to reprint the Core Set rules and to also fix cards with an errata such as....

 

Lannisport Brothel (Core) - should be Unique
Maester Cressen (Core) - title of card is missing the "t" in Maester"

 

I can not confirm as to whether Fantasy Flight corrected any of the errata, or if they updated the rules. If I were to go to my local gaming store today and buy a core set how would I be able to tell if it was a newly reprinted core set, or an older version ?


Edited by LordOWar, 21 February 2014 - 07:37 PM.


#18 Ratatoskr

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:29 AM

Lannisport Brothel has been correct for ages.



#19 LordOWar

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:10 AM

Just checked and yes, both Lannisport Brothel and Maester Cressen have been fixed. So that means that there are multiple versions of the core set, some with the older printing and some with updated errata printings. So why don't they use the opportunity to reprint the core rules whenever they re-print the core set, or have they ?

 

Is there a bar code that is different on newer versions of the core set ?



#20 Bomb

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:35 AM

I don't know if I like the idea of reprinting the core rule book with changes.  We already have an FAQ that is dynamically updated and having multiple physical versions of core rules floating around not only feels redundant, but also feels like it can cause even more confusion.

 

If anything, the core rule book could be updated strictly to provide references on how to find the latest FAQ and locate rules question references(which I don't know if it already does or not).  What would an updated core rule book look like?


Edited by Bomb, 24 February 2014 - 10:36 AM.





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