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Does anyone play the old beta?


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#41 Scyndria

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:33 AM

Scyndria:

You can't double wield a plasma rifle because in our system, the Pistol Grip gives the Close-Quarters special quality and don't make the weapon one-handed. Also, remember that with the autocannon, you have a 60% chance for at least one Righteous Fury. Oh, and the plasma rifle presented in the armory section would be just S6 (as it deals 66 points of damage) on the TT and not S7 (would need to deal 70-79 points of damage). 

 

**

Well, both of those weapons still have the same strength on TT. And i rather have an insane high standard damage, than 6d10's that can give a RF. And the reason to this is - You can only confirm 1, 1 whole RF no matter how many dices you have.

 

And just to remind you, Plasma rifles are for Battlesuits only, and they can always dual wield them due to fluff. ALWAYS.

And that is one of the few reasons to plasma rifles are insane with Commander Farsight on TT. Having 7 bodyguards + himself, that would make it 30 Plasma rifle shots with Rapid Fire..



#42 Darth Smeg

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:09 AM

 

Would you say these weapons are "roughly the same"?

 

Of course not! They have different damage models, and this is where we have a misunderstanding. You are actually getting a little strawman-y here as you present this like I said something like "They do roughly the same damage in every possible situation.

 

I don't want to get strawman-y, and I mean no offence. But your words were, and I quote:

 

You don't have to make a flat damage increase. For example, our Autogun does 2D10+8 damage while the Lasgun does 1D10+17. Roughly the same damage but still vastly different damage model. 

 

That is "Roughly the same damage but still vastly different damage model." 

 

My point has been all along that these weapons do not have "roughly the same damage", but I will concur that in very rare and optimal conditions, they will have roughly the same maximal value.

 

If we agree that "damage model" means distribution, expected values and all that, then I conclude that we most likely just disagree on the interpretation of your wording about "Roughly the same damage"

 

Not much to argue about, really, but I take what I can get  :P


Edited by Darth Smeg, 20 February 2014 - 09:12 AM.

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My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#43 Darth Smeg

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:16 AM

Just to be clear, AtoMaki, I think it's great that you share your work with us!

 

I don't mean to be dismissive or arrogant, and I hope that my input here helps you and others to make EVEN BETTER and more balanced house rules, which are again shared with the community!

 

It's great, and keep it up! I do not mean to piss you off, and if you get bored with the statistics, I'll stop ;)


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My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#44 AtoMaki

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:24 AM

If we agree that "damage model" means distribution, expected values and all that, then I conclude that we most likely just disagree on the interpretation of your wording about "Roughly the same damage"

 

Yeah, I think it was actually my mistake. I guess that's what you get if your native language is not English :P . A little sloppy wording and people get all the bad ideas :rolleyes: . 

 

So to make it clear, with "roughly the same damage" I meant: "their damage is capped roughly at the same level, so if one of them is useless against X defense then the other will be useless too most of the time". Or better yet: their threat level is roughly the same. 

 

And hey, no bad feelings here, our system is still under construction so any feedback is welcomed. 


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#45 Scyndria

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:29 AM

 

If we agree that "damage model" means distribution, expected values and all that, then I conclude that we most likely just disagree on the interpretation of your wording about "Roughly the same damage"

 

Yeah, I think it was actually my mistake. I guess that's what you get if your native language is not English :P . A little sloppy wording and people get all the bad ideas :rolleyes: . 

 

So to make it clear, with "roughly the same damage" I meant: "their damage is capped roughly at the same level, so if one of them is useless against X defense then the other will be useless too most of the time". Or better yet: their threat level is roughly the same. 

 

And hey, no bad feelings here, our system is still under construction so any feedback is welcomed. 

 

I'm sorry too, being a bit offensive in my wording :P. That happens sometimes then you feel one´s words just falls to the ground.

We can totally agree that they may, at some "extreme cases" have the same maximum damage, but as Lord-Nitpicker has said, everything else is not the same.

 

I just find many unbalanced and maybe unreasonable things in your weapon/damage system. I made my own system after some hours of "cloud-thinking".. I had to find a fast, easy to learn system, that required a low level of time to figure out the damage, but still keeping the weapons damage value as much as possible the same.

 

:)



#46 Kuanor

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 09:05 AM

I am thinking for some time now how to use the old beta the best and what to modify. Well...

About the damage system:

We have this guardsman, named Bob. He has a flak armour (4 head, 5 on the rest of the body). He has a toughness bonus of 4.
He got struck by a bolt shell in the left leg. The bolter deals 1d10+5 pen 4. The bolt rolls a 9(+5), a total of 14.
He reduces the damage by 1 from the armour, and 4 from his TB. The new result is now 9 point of damage.
My system took an idea from the normal injuries and critical injuries. 
Every time you reach the target's TB (4 in this case), you will give an additional +5 damage to the hit location. In this situation, we have reached Bob's TB twice! Giving a whole +10 extra damage to the hit location. Now the damage Bob's leg receives is 19! Now we look at chart and figure out what the damage have of effect.
IF he receives another shot in the same leg, you just add the new damage to the his current value (19+x).

  • All body parts have their own values. You can easily have 14 damage on the Head, another 4 on the left Arm, and 19 on Left Leg.
Understandable :)?
What you do here is stretching the area of possible hit results. This may lead to deadly hits by luck, making them more dangerous and less predictable.
I have also read this thread and I see the problem. I am convinced, that if the rules dictate nonsense results, than more handwaving is not the answer and not a reason to keep bad rules.
There also is this thread and while I like such HP-free, location-wound-only concepts in other PnP systems, I find the semi random result tables in DH quite intriguing and would like to keep them.

So, what actually is their problem?
What I don't like is that many hits (the first ones, but see the 12 lasguns example from the other thread) leave the target with some abstract thing called wound, which isn't really something worth the name but more a promise to do worse damage next time. In this sense it is not very different from silly Healthpoints-systems from old videogame-imitating 80s PnP systems.
Still, what you (Scyndria) do doesn't really change this fact, but just lets you reach the dangerous effect more often and earlier by already high damage results, increasing the meaning of the damage roll and of prior wounds.
But I also wouldn't just increase the weapon damage, since there still is armour and toughness, and hits not penetrating the armour are perfectly OK.

Other solutions/options?
  • A bonus on the damage result table (as if everyone already had a wound) or, equivalently, lowering the result numbers.
  • Some effects, or maybe a single one with some kind of characteristic test, for results 0-10, more like in the old beta before update 3.
  • Some kind of combinations of the first two options, making hits really dangerous, but with specifying wounds by location, making characters more durable again and the called shot more useful.
Thoughts on that?
Just theory so far, I am not even playing DH yet.

Edited by Kuanor, 08 March 2014 - 10:58 PM.


#47 Scyndria

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 09:50 AM

I partly understand you Kuanor.. might be due to lack of english skills and my understanding.

 

My team likes the system.. Sure a lucky shot or attack will make things far worse.. but atm. it's not some random Righteous fury rolls that does it. 



#48 Kuanor

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 11:04 PM

My English is bad probably, sorry for that. ^^
Which parts do you find difficult?

But the difference between a RF roll and your system is only, if I get it right:
  • Only 10s count vs. high damage in general counts more
  • You see the lucky result next turn vs. you see it immediately
Compared like this, your system is probably superior to RF (depending on what you try to reach), but doesn’t solve the problem from the last post. Just another way to add more luck (instead of RF, but with more administration).

Edited by Kuanor, 08 March 2014 - 11:05 PM.


#49 Scyndria

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 04:50 PM

Well, i like my way of solving the RF. With my system, you will see a skilled warrior more often dealing a mortal wound due to his high WS/BS (which is cheaper) than some psyker or adept..

 

As my topic about the damage system, mine is far more deadly.. At the moment, the strongest weapon used against the team is either a heavy stubber or chain axe. The 2. shot from the heavy stubber did cut of their medic's leg.. This can be due to the first shot hitting a soft spot, only making the next shot far more fatal.

 

My team doesn't really focus on the damage dealt as wounds, more as a describtion of how deadly the wound received is.
Ofc. we note down the damage dealt, but doesn't feel like a World of Warcraft health pool or any similar MMORPG pc game.
It's just easier to figure out the scenematic thing..

As said earlier, my team were surprised that their Desperado survived, even by getting shot in the eye. Sure it were mortal wound, but survived and got a bionic eye. And some insanity points :P



#50 Simsum

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:43 PM

Well, i like my way of solving the RF. With my system, you will see a skilled warrior more often dealing a mortal wound due to his high WS/BS (which is cheaper) than some psyker or adept..


Have you considered tying damage and hit location resolution to the attack roll?

At the moment we're fiddling with the idea of simply not having damage rolls, but instead giving weapons a fixed base damage value plus a fixed damage value per DoS.

We've also changed the distribution for Hit Location resolution, so higher attack skills have higher chances of inflicting, for example, head wounds.

#51 Scyndria

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:16 AM

 

Well, i like my way of solving the RF. With my system, you will see a skilled warrior more often dealing a mortal wound due to his high WS/BS (which is cheaper) than some psyker or adept..


Have you considered tying damage and hit location resolution to the attack roll?

At the moment we're fiddling with the idea of simply not having damage rolls, but instead giving weapons a fixed base damage value plus a fixed damage value per DoS.

We've also changed the distribution for Hit Location resolution, so higher attack skills have higher chances of inflicting, for example, head wounds.

We just let people roll the D10 for hit location after scoring a hit. 

 

At the moment, we do also play "A song of ice and fire" - Game of Thrones style.. And they have fixed damage, almost..






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