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Does anyone play the old beta?


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#21 Scyndria

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:53 AM

 

 

You don't have to make a flat damage increase. For example, our Autogun does 2D10+8 damage while the Lasgun does 1D10+17. Roughly the same damage but still vastly different damage model. 

 

That isn't roughly the same.

 

a d10 will do 5.5 pts on average, so 2d10 will score about 11pts. So your Autogun will do from 10 to 28 pts, with an average of 19, while your Lasgun will do from 18 to 27 pts of damage, with an average of 23.

 

I youd MUCH rather have the Lasgun with it's HUGE bonus to minimum damage, and a whopping 4 better average. The autogun will score MAX damage only 1% of the time, but the Lasgun will do so 10% of the time.

 

If you're gonna mess with dice, know your statistics :)

 

Totally agree here. I made some rolls at home, already knowing that it would be inbalanced and my theory were correct.

And you should remember, the Lasgun would have Overcharge (3) in the Beta, making it far stronger most of the time, compared to an autogun that would need special ammo. to reach the lasgun's normal setting.


Edited by Scyndria, 19 February 2014 - 03:11 AM.


#22 AtoMaki

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:15 AM

 

 

 

You don't have to make a flat damage increase. For example, our Autogun does 2D10+8 damage while the Lasgun does 1D10+17. Roughly the same damage but still vastly different damage model. 

 

That isn't roughly the same.

 

The damage output is the same as both weapons can dish out 28/27 points of damage at the "most optimal" level (so when you roll 2 0-s). Then they have the different damage model where the lasgun starts at a higher "raw" damage but the autogun has double the chance for Righteous Fury.
 

On thing i got my eye on, after just a few minutes of scheming, is the Bolter and Pulse Rifle. As you said, your group may not have gathered some of the weapons, so you may lack the experience of the weapon use. But having the Pulse rifle dealing 2d10+40 pen 14, and the Bolter dealing 2d10+22 pen 4 and tearing. This is a huge imbalance.. On the boardgame, the Pulse Rifle has superior strength and range, but the same penetration. The Bolter has has tearing instead, increasing the overall damage from the 2d10s, but only has pen 4.. Only enough to penetrate a flak armour. On the boardfield, both the weapons ignores 5+ armour saves, which will be excatly like a guardsman flak armour,.

 

That's the plasma rifle and not the pulse rifle :D. Wait, I re-checked it and it isn't the plasma rifle either. I think you misread that part because no weapon does 2D10+40 damage with pen 14.... The pulse rifle does 3D10+25 damage with Pen 4. 

 

Actually, the maximum damage of the weapons equal to their tabletop Strength x 10 (+/- a few points). With energy weapons dealing more "fixed" damage and solid projectile weapons having more D10s in the damage roll (thus having a bigger chance for RF). 


Edited by AtoMaki, 19 February 2014 - 07:01 AM.


#23 Darth Smeg

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:45 AM

The damage output is the same as both weapons can dish out 28/27 points of damage at the "most optimal" level (so when you roll 2 0-s). 

 

It is absolutely not the same. 

 

One has a 1% chance of scoring 28, a 2% chance of scoring 27, a 3% chance of scoring 26, etc.

The other has a 10% chance of scoring 27, 10% chance of Scoring 26, 10% of scoring 25, and so forth.

 

The first has a Normal (bell-curve) distribution, clumped around 19. 

The second has a linear distribution, all results occurring with same frequency, stretching from 18-27. (Note that this linear stretch STARTS at the AVERAGE value of the other. IE, half the results from the other will be less that the minimum value of the first)

 

The first will score AT LEAST 20 only 45% of the time, and AT LEAST only 25 10% of the times.

The second will score AT LEAST 20 a massive 80% of the time, and AT LEAST 25 a respectable 30% of the times.

 

More academically, the first has an average of 19, with a standard deviation of 4,while the second has an average of 22,5 with a standard deviation of 2,87

Study the results over at anydice.com for some quick numbers. 


Edited by Darth Smeg, 19 February 2014 - 07:49 AM.

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#24 AtoMaki

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:20 AM

One has a 1% chance of scoring 28, a 2% chance of scoring 27, a 3% chance of scoring 26, etc.

The other has a 10% chance of scoring 27, 10% chance of Scoring 26, 10% of scoring 25, and so forth.

 

The first has a Normal (bell-curve) distribution, clumped around 19. 

The second has a linear distribution, all results occurring with same frequency, stretching from 18-27. (Note that this linear stretch STARTS at the AVERAGE value of the other. IE, half the results from the other will be less that the minimum value of the first)

 

The first will score AT LEAST 20 only 45% of the time, and AT LEAST only 25 10% of the times.

The second will score AT LEAST 20 a massive 80% of the time, and AT LEAST 25 a respectable 30% of the times.

 

More academically, the first has an average of 19, with a standard deviation of 4,while the second has an average of 22,5 with a standard deviation of 2,87

 

This is the damage models of the weapons. But they can't outperform the other as their maximum damage is the same. Both weapons are stuck in the same 27> damage but the lasgun has a more reliable way to reach the optimal result (the maximum damage) because of its better damage model. It is like two cars with the same top speed but different acceleration. 



#25 Darth Smeg

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:50 AM

They have the same top-value, but the similarity ends there. There is no way you can describe these models as "roughly the same".

 

It would be more fair to say that these models may produce similar results in extreme cases, but will most likely not be comparable.


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#26 AtoMaki

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:00 AM

They have the same top-value, but the similarity ends there. There is no way you can describe these models as "roughly the same".

 

I wasn't describing the damage models as roughly the same but the "raw" damage value itself that is 27> (or 28> in the case of the autogun). And that was my original point concerning damage increments: you can increase the damage of two weapons by a seemingly flat value (for example the autguns/lasguns 13> to 28>/27>) but still make them vastly different with the damage model applied to the increased damage value. 



#27 Scyndria

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:57 AM


On thing i got my eye on, after just a few minutes of scheming, is the Bolter and Pulse Rifle. As you said, your group may not have gathered some of the weapons, so you may lack the experience of the weapon use. But having the Pulse rifle dealing 2d10+40 pen 14, and the Bolter dealing 2d10+22 pen 4 and tearing. This is a huge imbalance.. On the boardgame, the Pulse Rifle has superior strength and range, but the same penetration. The Bolter has has tearing instead, increasing the overall damage from the 2d10s, but only has pen 4.. Only enough to penetrate a flak armour. On the boardfield, both the weapons ignores 5+ armour saves, which will be excatly like a guardsman flak armour,.

 

That's the plasma rifle and not the pulse rifle :D. Wait, I re-checked it and it isn't the plasma rifle either. I think you misread that part because no weapon does 2D10+40 damage with pen 14.... The pulse rifle does 3D10+25 damage with Pen 4. 

 

Actually, the maximum damage of the weapons equal to their tabletop Strength x 10 (+/- a few points). With energy weapons dealing more "fixed" damage and solid projectile weapons having more D10s in the damage roll (thus having a bigger chance for RF). 

 

 

**

I see that i made that mistake. Looking at the Plasma rifle as you noted. The damage of 3d10+23 pen 4 is okay-ish compared to the bolter, although a whole +1d10+2 damage is a huge difference imo. Also to be noted, that all Tau's weapons of the Pulse version (carbine, pistol and rifle) has the excat same firepower, but you still decrease it's damage due to size. All three weapons will heat up the electrones to the same degrees, as the same technology is no-different to each other.



#28 Scyndria

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:00 AM

They have the same top-value, but the similarity ends there. There is no way you can describe these models as "roughly the same".

 

It would be more fair to say that these models may produce similar results in extreme cases, but will most likely not be comparable.

 

The Lasgun and Autogun is far from balanced, as these two weapons are near the same compared to firepower. I would always pick the Lasgun in this setting, even tho the lack of special ammo.

I can only agree with you here. Your maths are all right. You make the Emperor proud.


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#29 AtoMaki

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:34 AM

I see that i made that mistake. Looking at the Plasma rifle as you noted. The damage of 3d10+23 pen 4 is okay-ish compared to the bolter, although a whole +1d10+2 damage is a huge difference imo. Also to be noted, that all Tau's weapons of the Pulse version (carbine, pistol and rifle) has the excat same firepower, but you still decrease it's damage due to size. All three weapons will heat up the electrones to the same degrees, as the same technology is no-different to each other.

 

The 1D10+2 damage is the jump from S4 (~40-49> damage) to S5 (~50-59> damage). And in our damage system, 3-4 or even 5-6 points of damage difference isn't really that big. You usually want to take the 10+ difference as most of your possible targets have damage soaks that are tiered in 10s too (for example, armor+Damage Resistance soaks up 10/20/30 of damage depending on the opponent so if you want to damage a tougher opponent then you will need 10+ extra damage and not 5-6). 

 

The Lasgun and Autogun is far from balanced, as these two weapons are near the same compared to firepower. I would always pick the Lasgun in this setting, even tho the lack of special ammo.

 

 

No, you would pick the Kom-Rifle or the Kom-Lasrifle  :D . The weapons are actually far from balanced, I'll admit this. There are vastly superior choices (like the Photonic Ray Gun) and there is a "NPC Trash Arsenal" category. But it is intentional on our part - sometimes, a bad gun should be just like that... bad. So when a PC mows down a whole squad of soldiers with his kitted-out Assault Pulser he won't have the feeling that maybe he should loot the bodies for a barebone Autogun because it has a "balance niche" he would like to try out. 



#30 Scyndria

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:38 AM

 

I see that i made that mistake. Looking at the Plasma rifle as you noted. The damage of 3d10+23 pen 4 is okay-ish compared to the bolter, although a whole +1d10+2 damage is a huge difference imo. Also to be noted, that all Tau's weapons of the Pulse version (carbine, pistol and rifle) has the excat same firepower, but you still decrease it's damage due to size. All three weapons will heat up the electrones to the same degrees, as the same technology is no-different to each other.

 

The 1D10+2 damage is the jump from S4 (~40-49> damage) to S5 (~50-59> damage). And in our damage system, 3-4 or even 5-6 points of damage difference isn't really that big. You usually want to take the 10+ difference as most of your possible targets have damage soaks that are tiered in 10s too (for example, armor+Damage Resistance soaks up 10/20/30 of damage depending on the opponent so if you want to damage a tougher opponent then you will need 10+ extra damage and not 5-6). 

 

The Lasgun and Autogun is far from balanced, as these two weapons are near the same compared to firepower. I would always pick the Lasgun in this setting, even tho the lack of special ammo.

 

 

No, you would pick the Kom-Rifle or the Kom-Lasrifle  :D . The weapons are actually far from balanced, I'll admit this. There are vastly superior choices (like the Photonic Ray Gun) and there is a "NPC Trash Arsenal" category. But it is intentional on our part - sometimes, a bad gun should be just like that... bad. So when a PC mows down a whole squad of soldiers with his kitted-out Assault Pulser he won't have the feeling that maybe he should loot the bodies for a barebone Autogun because it has a "balance niche" he would like to try out. 

 

I have it difficult to see this as an argument. 



#31 AtoMaki

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:56 AM

I have it difficult to see this as an argument. 

 

Here is a rundown on the damage system we use:

http://community.fan...anged/?p=906996

Hope this will clear up some confusion on how our damage system works. 



#32 Scyndria

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 11:11 AM

Your system is really complex. Mine is very simple compared to yours. A little bit of math and you pass on to the next player.



#33 Darth Smeg

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:12 AM

I wasn't describing the damage models as roughly the same but the "raw" damage value itself that is 27> (or 28> in the case of the autogun). 

 

Perhaps we're really just arguing semantics here, but if you wish to compare "raw" damage values for two weapons it would make sense to compare their Expected Values (EV), ie: Mean, Average. (In this case 19 v 23)

 

To compare some theoretical maximum value tells you very little when one weapon will achieve this value 1% of the time, and the other 10%.

 

This is why we speak of Damage-Per-Second (DPS) in games like WoW: Max damage means very little, you have to consider damage spread and rate of attack.


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#34 Scyndria

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:18 AM

 

I wasn't describing the damage models as roughly the same but the "raw" damage value itself that is 27> (or 28> in the case of the autogun). 

 

Perhaps we're really just arguing semantics here, but if you wish to compare "raw" damage values for two weapons it would make sense to compare their Expected Values (EV), ie: Mean, Average. (In this case 19 v 23)

 

To compare some theoretical maximum value tells you very little when one weapon will achieve this value 1% of the time, and the other 10%.

 

This is why we speak of Damage-Per-Second (DPS) in games like WoW: Max damage means very little, you have to consider damage spread and rate of attack.

 

Thank you sir!

Finally someone speak of something that he knows of, and hopefully most of us would understand :P.'

 

Glad that someone agrees with me Darth Smeg :)


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#35 comradeda

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:52 AM

I'd like to see the old damage system worked on a bit more, though I'd prefer the majority of "random damage" coming primarily from the weapon and not from previous wounds. Or at least the ideas listed in it played around with.

I don't really see any reason why you couldn't integrate it with the old actions, half actions, reactions system, but maybe I'm missing something basic.



#36 Scyndria

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:52 AM

I'd like to see the old damage system worked on a bit more, though I'd prefer the majority of "random damage" coming primarily from the weapon and not from previous wounds. Or at least the ideas listed in it played around with.

I don't really see any reason why you couldn't integrate it with the old actions, half actions, reactions system, but maybe I'm missing something basic.

Well, i have shown my damage system with the old beta's critical damage system. 

 

The only system that is not explained, is how you get regenerate damage suffered and medicae tests.



#37 AtoMaki

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:37 AM

Perhaps we're really just arguing semantics here

 

By now, we are arguing about schematics here. You are constantly taking the damage model into account while I don't. Nobody can be perfect I guess  :D



#38 Darth Smeg

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:04 AM

Well, I am the Lord-Nitpicker  :D

 

If you wish to be precise (you should!) then you should state that you're comparing potential Max Damage.

 

But if the's the case, then you could say that a Lascannons 5d10+10 is "roughly the same" as Hypothetical weapon with 1d10+50, as they both have the same "raw" (I assume you mean max) damage of 60.

 

Even though the first will have an EV of 37,5, and a min value of 15, and the second an EV of 55 and a minimum of 51. A more extreme example, sure, but the principle is the same.

 

Would you say these weapons are "roughly the same"?


Edited by Darth Smeg, 20 February 2014 - 06:04 AM.

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#39 Scyndria

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:12 AM

Well, I am the Lord-Nitpicker  :D

 

If you wish to be precise (you should!) then you should state that you're comparing potential Max Damage.

 

But if the's the case, then you could say that a Lascannons 5d10+10 is "roughly the same" as Hypothetical weapon with 1d10+50, as they both have the same "raw" (I assume you mean max) damage of 60.

 

Even though the first will have an EV of 37,5, and a min value of 15, and the second an EV of 55 and a minimum of 51. A more extreme example, sure, but the principle is the same.

 

Would you say these weapons are "roughly the same"?

I agree with you here again Lord-Nitpicker :P

I saw the Plasma Rifle doing 2d10+40, pen 14, but the autocannon dealing 6d10+14 pen 7? They have same strength on the boardfield, but different penetration, still they are "roughly the same"? GG for having dual-wielding plasma rifles instead of using a Heavy weapon that has to be braced before use.



#40 AtoMaki

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:46 AM

Would you say these weapons are "roughly the same"?

 

Of course not! They have different damage models, and this is where we have a misunderstanding. You are actually getting a little strawman-y here as you present this like I said something like "They do roughly the same damage in every possible situation." even though I disregard the last part when I talk about "damage" (really, no matter what you do, you will always deal 27> damage with the weapon) and refer to it as "damage model" (the stuff within that 27> damage including the average damage and all the possibilities to dish out variable damage values within that 27> range). 

 

Scyndria:

You can't double wield a plasma rifle because in our system, the Pistol Grip gives the Close-Quarters special quality and don't make the weapon one-handed. Also, remember that with the autocannon, you have a 60% chance for at least one Righteous Fury. Oh, and the plasma rifle presented in the armory section would be just S6 (as it deals 66 points of damage) on the TT and not S7 (would need to deal 70-79 points of damage). 






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